Philip Lawrence

[flanker]

I hear that the low life that murdered Philip Lawrence is to be moved to an open prison to be nearer his mum as he misses her.

 

At least he gets to see his mum again - personally, I feel this fetid stinking miserable excuse for a human should be left to wallow in his own waste in a windowless cold damp dark cell for the rest of his worthless life.

 

Is this harsh? 

[ll_billym]

I understand.  It would seem that you think that it is a violation of human rights to put people in prison and isolate them from society (including their friends and family) for committing a crime.

 

I agree with your last point:  In this case the murderer did not respect the human rights of his victim, so why should the prison system give him more rights than he is entitled to?  He hasn't got much to be surprised or appalled about has he?  In fact he gets what he wants, not much of a justice system in my book.

[WaldoMcFroog]

"But the people in Guantanamo have not been convicted or even charged with anything" So, you're arguing that the treatment given to them is unnaceptable because they're innocent, but as soon as they become convicted it's then okay to stop them practising their religion, to deny them food and water, to put them in solitary confinement, beat them up and otherwise deny them their civil liberties etc? (Those, incidentally, are all mistreatments alleged by people on Guantanamo.)

[cruthinboy]

Couldn't give a toss about them to be perectly honest. Perhaps behead a few on video ...

[WaldoMcFroog]

Oh okay. It's a shame though, don't you think? Under your system, Private Lee Clegg who was tried and convicted of murdering a young girl by shooting her in the back when her car didn't stop at a checkpoint in Northern Ireland would have been hung by half of you and beaten/ starved/ god knows what by the rest.

 

And then he got let off on appeal. Still, I'm sure he'd see your point of view, eh?

[cruthinboy]

I don't recommend killing the people in Guantanamo - just said I couldn't give a toss about them - don't like Islamic fudamentalists full stop. Just being honest, no point in showing a false sympathy is there?

[ll_billym]

And under your system he would not have gone to jail in the first place?

[cruthinboy]

Anyway, this is another of those debates that goes nowhere.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Sorry, I thought you said 'Perhaps behead a few on video ... '

 

Regardless, my point is not about Guantanamo, but about human rights abuses in prison. Are we supposed to stop prosecuting Lyndie England under 'no human rights for prisoners' regime, or not? I'm not sure I follow the logic of the argument, you see.

[WaldoMcFroog]

"And under your system he would not have gone to jail in the first place?"

 

You know the answer I gave that started "What is it that is so hard for so many of those of a more conservative bent to understand?" Can you read that one again please?

[flanker]

No, everybody knew the Lee Clegg thing was an absolute farce, and it was only a matter of time before he would be released - similarly the Tony Martin conviction was a farce: he shot a pikey who was trying to rob him - bloody good for him in my book - its a simple argument, but a valid one nonetheless, if the little pikey wasn't there he would not have been shot.

 

This is the intrinsic difference - Lee Clegg and Tony Martin were miscarriages, everybody knew that, and the right result was achieved in the end.

 

The scumbag who killed Philip Lawrence/Peter Sutcliffe/Neilson/Shipman/West et al, do not deserve our sympathy and I genuinely don't think we should accord them any human rights at all: they knew exactly what they were doing and therefore should be left to rot.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Oh, right - I get it. The prisoners' rights are determined on the basis of press coverage.

 

That must be what you're saying, because Tony Martin and Lee Clegg aren't the only disputed convictions in the UK, merely high profile. However, you're saying that because 'everyone' knows these cases are miscarriages of justice - because they received the most coverage and lots of people therefore had an opinion about the case - they don't get to have their human rights abused.

 

I must say that it all seems a bit arbitrary to me.

[flanker]

I guess we've reached an impasse - still, wouldn't it be terribly boring if we all thought the same?

[jimmer]

yeah but no but. god it soon comes out doesn't it. You want to chop peoples heads off and hang them by 50p of rope.You don't give a toss about justice. The death penalty quiet simply clogs up the system in appeals, does not act as a deterrant and doesn't make the public safer. Capital punishment is not going to bring back the murdered, make us safer or save us money. Individual cases highlighted by the press are invariably exagerated beyond all sensible meaning to provide "evidence" that society is crumbling when in fact it isn't. Getting carried away with your pitch forks and lanterns isn't going to move us forward you neanderthals.

 

jim

[cruthinboy]

jimmer, so any solutions to the problem of criminal violence? Or just another liberal defending their wretched uselesss system by insulting those that disagree with them.

 

[ll_billym]

"You know the answer I gave that started "What is it that is so hard for so many of those of a more conservative bent to understand?" Can you read that one again please?"

 

Got it.  That's the one where you changed the debate from whether a convicted criminal who should be serving a punishment is allowed privileges that are denied to others to a debate about starving and beating suspected terrorists.

 

Can we have your view on the topic in question please: Do you think that denying this man a prison transfer so that he can see more of his mother is a violation of his human rights?

[WaldoMcFroog]

Not really. It's only a shame that I wasn't commenting on that point but "I love seeing the bleeding heart liberals trying (and failing) to argue that these sub-humans should be treated humanely" and the bring back hanging brigade, otherwise you'd have scored a brilliant point there.

 

You're still missing my point by the way.

[ll_billym]

I am honestly interested in what your point is WaldoMcFroog.  There is a difference between treating someone humanely, which I am in favour of, and giving them playstations and transfers because they are missing mummy.

 

PS: I have not researched the original post and it has probably been sensationalised by some news source or other but I am arguing about the principle.

[bernardo]

I am still laughing hysterically at the absurd claim by flanker that we liberals (and yes, I am proud to be a liberal) are somehow "failing" to "argue that these sub-humans should be treated humanely".

 

The person who murdered Mr Lawrence is serving a life sentence for that murder, and as such is being punished appropriately.  He is a human being and therefore, by definition, deserves to be treated humanely.  Broadly speaking I agree with WaldoMcFroog.  I would suggest the followwing principles to be followed:

• It is better to be liberal than illiberal
• It is better to be a "do-gooder" than a "do-badder"
• Criminals should be sent to prison as punishment; criminals should not be sent to prison for punishment.

TTML

[FP]

I have read through this thread, and agree with Waldo McFrood and Bernardo. 

 

I know this is away from the subject but, Flanker, before you defend Tony Martin I suggest you actually research the whole case and find out just what Tony Martin was all about and what his previous convictions were, including his firearm convictions.  This was a typical example of the media making people believe just what they wanted them to believe.   Tony Martin is a dangerous man.

[Peter Pedant]

Hi boys, having fun

Flanker,if he supports hanging or beheading with or without branding before hand must, if he wishes to agree with handing, agree that both Tony Martin and Pte Clegg should have been  hanged.

If he does not agree they should have been hanged because they were wrongly convicted, then he does not support capital punishment. and he is on the side of the Liberals.

Now in terms of imprisonment, the term in prison is not meant to destroy a man - see comments above- it is in fact meant to change him. For the better I hasten to add. He had to learn to confrom to his societies dieals and what better than family visits to start to do that.

Anyway, Mrs Lawrence forgave her husbands killer didnt she? I dont think the family  Pte Clegg's bereaved have forgiven him have they?

As soon as one says, oh life means life, oh except for those in the army, or those I like, then the argument takes on a completely different tone.

Peace, babies,