Quizzes & Puzzles20 mins ago
Stephen Fry's Opinion
45 Answers
Is Stephen Fry right to say that the MP's expenses story is being blown out of proportion?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8045040 .stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8045040 .stm
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hear hear, Vic. The idea that people vote back in the party that took us into Iraq, while they might vote out a party because of an expenses scam from which all parties benefited (and which Gordon Brown actually tried clumsily to reform), does suggest priorities are upside down. Stephen Fry is right. ABers seldom mention Iraq or identity cards, but they get all excited about someone claiming too much for a Kit-Kat. That's out of proportion.
OK - using a 'there are more important things to worry about' argument is simply a cop out. Yes there are, and always will be, but at what point do you decide to put all your mental energy into one issue - and who decides which is the most vital - and then ignore all the rest?
This issue is not about claiming for lunch and taking sandwiches, it is about the wholesale fraudulant use of public funds to a massive degree over a sustained period of time by people who are elected to represent us and who should, by definition, be beyond reproach.
This issue is not about claiming for lunch and taking sandwiches, it is about the wholesale fraudulant use of public funds to a massive degree over a sustained period of time by people who are elected to represent us and who should, by definition, be beyond reproach.
Okay, lets say that every MP took �100,000 that they were not entitled to - this equates to about �65 million a year. You really think that this is more important than taking us into a war or the current problems with the NHS (which is haemorrhaging more than that sum every year).
Again, I ask, why do you think that MPs are not 'normal' people and should be 'beyond approach'.
Do you really think that there is anyone (let alone 650 people) that break absolutely no laws?
Maybe you could tell me - if an MP was to break any law (and bear in mind that they haven't broken any laws), should they be automatically sacked? Should a speeding ticket preclude anyone from standing from MP? What about illegal parking? Is littering enough?
All this is doing is distracting from real issues - hours are now being spent on placating the public and trying to win votes rather than looking at how the education standards are falling, how people are living in fear in their neighbourhoods etc etc etc.
Still, middle England is disturbed by this, so it makes more news than (say) the crime statistics that were issued yesterday.
Again, I ask, why do you think that MPs are not 'normal' people and should be 'beyond approach'.
Do you really think that there is anyone (let alone 650 people) that break absolutely no laws?
Maybe you could tell me - if an MP was to break any law (and bear in mind that they haven't broken any laws), should they be automatically sacked? Should a speeding ticket preclude anyone from standing from MP? What about illegal parking? Is littering enough?
All this is doing is distracting from real issues - hours are now being spent on placating the public and trying to win votes rather than looking at how the education standards are falling, how people are living in fear in their neighbourhoods etc etc etc.
Still, middle England is disturbed by this, so it makes more news than (say) the crime statistics that were issued yesterday.
andy-hughes
I should re-phrase - I don't mean, "Let's ignore this, it's not important and there are more important issues"...what I mean is that whilst MPs are concentrating on this story, which in the long term is only significant to MPs, real issues that they should be focussed on, are put on the back burner.
I should re-phrase - I don't mean, "Let's ignore this, it's not important and there are more important issues"...what I mean is that whilst MPs are concentrating on this story, which in the long term is only significant to MPs, real issues that they should be focussed on, are put on the back burner.
We neither have the means or opportunities to fiddle the system
Pretty much every business person tries to 'fiddle the system' in your terms, or 'play by the law' in their own terms.
Company directors will often get paid a dividend as opposed to a salary. Why do you think this is? Most small companies will have their spouse as employees regardless of if they do any work. If you are undercharged in a shop, very few people will go back and complain.
Lets face it - if we can 'get away' with something and keep within the law, most people will do so. If you are on a higher salary, then the amount you will 'get away' with is obviously higher.
Ludwig - that is a pretty serious allegation you make against Jacqui Smith - do you have any proof of her lying? Or have you made your mind up without actually having any proof or letting it go to court?
Prejudice can be a terrible thing.
Pretty much every business person tries to 'fiddle the system' in your terms, or 'play by the law' in their own terms.
Company directors will often get paid a dividend as opposed to a salary. Why do you think this is? Most small companies will have their spouse as employees regardless of if they do any work. If you are undercharged in a shop, very few people will go back and complain.
Lets face it - if we can 'get away' with something and keep within the law, most people will do so. If you are on a higher salary, then the amount you will 'get away' with is obviously higher.
Ludwig - that is a pretty serious allegation you make against Jacqui Smith - do you have any proof of her lying? Or have you made your mind up without actually having any proof or letting it go to court?
Prejudice can be a terrible thing.
You're right Vic, it's wrong to prejudge these things. It could well turn out that her sister's back bedroom was indeed her main residence and not that big house where her family lives.
It may also be true that it was essential for that Tory MP to have a chandelier fitted in order to fulfill his duties as an MP. Perhaps it was too dark for him to fill in his expense forms without it. We'll have to wait and see.
It may also be true that it was essential for that Tory MP to have a chandelier fitted in order to fulfill his duties as an MP. Perhaps it was too dark for him to fill in his expense forms without it. We'll have to wait and see.
So, the documented, longterm,widespread venality of our elected representatives is unimportant purely because of the scale?
Nonsense. They have systematically and arrogantly abused the system for years. How can they possibly command our respect, or lecture anyone about waste in our public services or abuse of the system with benefit fraud or wag the moral finger at the fatcat bankers when they flip homes to tart em up and make a killing on the property market, or tell porkies to the commons fees office and HMRI to avoid capital gains tax on property sales, or furnish their homes with silk cushions at the taxpayers expense, or think that it should be down to the taxpayer to pay for horse s h i t for their gardens, or for gods sake 5p for a plastic carrier bag?
We the british public should rightly be furious at the undefying picture of MPs with snouts and heads in some cases firmly buried in the trough, and effectively dipping their hand into your pocket every time they fancied getting the lawns cut.
Nonsense. They have systematically and arrogantly abused the system for years. How can they possibly command our respect, or lecture anyone about waste in our public services or abuse of the system with benefit fraud or wag the moral finger at the fatcat bankers when they flip homes to tart em up and make a killing on the property market, or tell porkies to the commons fees office and HMRI to avoid capital gains tax on property sales, or furnish their homes with silk cushions at the taxpayers expense, or think that it should be down to the taxpayer to pay for horse s h i t for their gardens, or for gods sake 5p for a plastic carrier bag?
We the british public should rightly be furious at the undefying picture of MPs with snouts and heads in some cases firmly buried in the trough, and effectively dipping their hand into your pocket every time they fancied getting the lawns cut.
It could well turn out that her sister's back bedroom was indeed her main residence and not that big house where her family lives.
So your family live in Worcestershire and you work in London and stay at your sister's place in London during the week. Where would you consider you live?
LazygunHow can they possibly command our respect, - are you really trying to say that prior to this you respected politicians?
So your family live in Worcestershire and you work in London and stay at your sister's place in London during the week. Where would you consider you live?
LazygunHow can they possibly command our respect, - are you really trying to say that prior to this you respected politicians?
OEV - are you seriously suggesting that the position of representative of the people in a parliamentary democracy should not be worthy of respect?
And yes, for some politicians I did have some respect. I still do for some of them. Anyone who enters into public life should endevour to honourably fulfil that role.
And yes, for some politicians I did have some respect. I still do for some of them. Anyone who enters into public life should endevour to honourably fulfil that role.
"So your family live in Worcestershire and you work in London and stay at your sister's place in London during the week. Where would you consider you live? "
I'd consider that I lived in Worcestershire and worked away from HOME during the week. Still if I could get someone else to pay my mortgage by lying about it I suppose I could be persuaded to see things differently.
I'd consider that I lived in Worcestershire and worked away from HOME during the week. Still if I could get someone else to pay my mortgage by lying about it I suppose I could be persuaded to see things differently.
Lazygun - would you say that you previously respected hte Majority (ie over 50%) of politicians? And how much has changed since this revelation?
ludwig - if you went into a job and they said that you were allowed to live in London and they would pay for your house and allow you to furnish it, would you say "no thanks, i would rather live in a flat or stay at a friend's house instead".
As I have said, the rules are wrong, but I don't see that they did anything different to any one else. They (the majority) kept within the rules and claimed what they could. They have done nothing wrong legally, just maybe morally.
ludwig - if you went into a job and they said that you were allowed to live in London and they would pay for your house and allow you to furnish it, would you say "no thanks, i would rather live in a flat or stay at a friend's house instead".
As I have said, the rules are wrong, but I don't see that they did anything different to any one else. They (the majority) kept within the rules and claimed what they could. They have done nothing wrong legally, just maybe morally.
oneeyedvic you seem to fail to grasp the whole crux of this!
when a company allows you expenses it come out of THEIR profit and they are responsible in their own company for balancing the books.
These Mps are taking OUR money! theres no excess profit so you can have more expenses this year or any such like that might happen in a company. Every person is feeling the pinch in one way or another but they can carry on claiming and not have to worry about it is absoluely absurd!
when a company allows you expenses it come out of THEIR profit and they are responsible in their own company for balancing the books.
These Mps are taking OUR money! theres no excess profit so you can have more expenses this year or any such like that might happen in a company. Every person is feeling the pinch in one way or another but they can carry on claiming and not have to worry about it is absoluely absurd!
OEV - Its the moral aspect that irritates me. Most of them just pushed the envelope of what was considered within the rules agreed, seemingly with the endorsement of the commons fees office. Fiddling your expenses, in pretty much every branch of work I have ever been involved with is and should be regarded as an extremely serious matter, potentially a sackable offence, and maybe even theft. Its much much worse when this sort of thing is carried out by public representatives and its the public purse they are helping themselves to.
I reserve my respect of MPs for a pretty small proportion of them, and to be fair, that hasn't changed much as a consequence of the recent revelations.It doesn't alter my belief however that Politics and our democratically elected representatives should be worthy, honourable and honest individuals, and that the public should hold them to account when they are found to be short of this.
Most people are cynical of MPs - but that doesnt mean we should just shrug our shoulders, accept it and cry " human nature". If we do that, nothing will improve.
I reserve my respect of MPs for a pretty small proportion of them, and to be fair, that hasn't changed much as a consequence of the recent revelations.It doesn't alter my belief however that Politics and our democratically elected representatives should be worthy, honourable and honest individuals, and that the public should hold them to account when they are found to be short of this.
Most people are cynical of MPs - but that doesnt mean we should just shrug our shoulders, accept it and cry " human nature". If we do that, nothing will improve.
Lazygun Fiddling your expenses, in pretty much every branch of work I have ever been involved with is and should be regarded as an extremely serious matter, potentially a sackable offence, and maybe even theft. Its much much worse when this sort of thing is carried out by public representatives and its the public purse they are helping themselves to.
And this is the crux of the matter .... they have NOT been fiddling. They have been taking advantage of the rules in place. And that (in every job i have heard about) can not be a sacking offence. Once the directors find this loop hole, they will of course close it, but nothing has actually happened that is 'fiddling'.
The Sherman As I ahev said previously, this is purely a distraction from things like the education system, the benefit system or the national health service which is losing more of our money on a weekly basis that these MPs have taken in a year.
We will never get 'good' mps since we put them on a pedestal to knock them down. We don't let them actually do what they want to do - they are far too busy trying to get reelected or pandering to the media.
What do you think the bosses of big companies (who would have a similar role) get in comparison to MPs?
We don't pay them anything like they could earn in the private sector and if you pay peanuts......
And this is the crux of the matter .... they have NOT been fiddling. They have been taking advantage of the rules in place. And that (in every job i have heard about) can not be a sacking offence. Once the directors find this loop hole, they will of course close it, but nothing has actually happened that is 'fiddling'.
The Sherman As I ahev said previously, this is purely a distraction from things like the education system, the benefit system or the national health service which is losing more of our money on a weekly basis that these MPs have taken in a year.
We will never get 'good' mps since we put them on a pedestal to knock them down. We don't let them actually do what they want to do - they are far too busy trying to get reelected or pandering to the media.
What do you think the bosses of big companies (who would have a similar role) get in comparison to MPs?
We don't pay them anything like they could earn in the private sector and if you pay peanuts......
OEV - From the reports I have seen, several of them could indeed be accused of fiddling their expenses... several of them are being investigated by the appropriate authorities, and rightly so.Several have been shamed into paying back monies...such as the one who claimed for dry rot work on a house in Southhampton, not even their constituency residence.
As to what we should be paying them... well, the basic salary for a backbencher is �60,000 plus.... 2x the national average.. and then there are a proportion for whom this is a second job.Lets discount their extremely generous pension scheme for now. Furthermore, they have additional monies for running their parliamentary and constituency offices( with issues of its own over nepotism, with the hiring of family members) and the various allowances they can claim such as an unreceipted �400 a month food allowance (equivalent to what,around another �8-9,000 a year before tax?).... I would say that adds up to a pretty hefty wedge. There may be an argument for paying them more as a basic salary, but that would have to be in tandem with major reforms in the way parliament itself works and indeed the number of MPs we actually have.
I remain firmly convinced that the public should be furious at their behaviour.. not to simply shrug it off as human nature and deem it a petty inconsequence.
As to what we should be paying them... well, the basic salary for a backbencher is �60,000 plus.... 2x the national average.. and then there are a proportion for whom this is a second job.Lets discount their extremely generous pension scheme for now. Furthermore, they have additional monies for running their parliamentary and constituency offices( with issues of its own over nepotism, with the hiring of family members) and the various allowances they can claim such as an unreceipted �400 a month food allowance (equivalent to what,around another �8-9,000 a year before tax?).... I would say that adds up to a pretty hefty wedge. There may be an argument for paying them more as a basic salary, but that would have to be in tandem with major reforms in the way parliament itself works and indeed the number of MPs we actually have.
I remain firmly convinced that the public should be furious at their behaviour.. not to simply shrug it off as human nature and deem it a petty inconsequence.
OEV - From the reports I have seen, several of them could indeed be accused of fiddling their expenses... several of them are being investigated by the appropriate authorities, and rightly so.Several have been shamed into paying back monies...such as the one who claimed for dry rot work on a house in Southhampton, not even their constituency residence.
yes - several. Lets call it 20 or the equivalent of 3%. Would you say that in a company of 100 sales reps, there would be about 3 who were 'trying it on'
yes - several. Lets call it 20 or the equivalent of 3%. Would you say that in a company of 100 sales reps, there would be about 3 who were 'trying it on'
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