Israeli killers used UK passports to facilitate a murder in Dubai.

Sandy-Wroe | 18:53 Tue 16th Feb 2010 | News

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This is a pariah state on a par with apartheid South Africa. When is the west going to do something about it?

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Sandy-Wroe

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R1 Geezer, imagine that the Germans had won the last war and the UK was occupied. You and your family were treated as something less than human by the foreign settlers who were changing the nature of your homeland forever.
What would you do? Would you support the resistance?
That's the position that the Palestinians are in now.
As for the rockets that the Palestinians used. They are little more than fireworks.

R1Geezer

Yes I would support the resistance but I'd ecourage the use of common sense. For example If every time I fired a catapult at a German, they killed 100 people, I'd put that catapult away. The rockets are relatively minor irritants that serve to get the palistinians killed en masse. The deaths you talk about are the work of Hamas/Hezbolla etc for being to stupid to realise what will happen when they attack Israel, Geddit?

Quinlad

Great tiger analogy. It works better if you replace the tiger (a wild animal) with a human (who can supposedly think rationally).

Out of interest, what would you then do with the killer? Give him a pat on the head? Ignore the fact he'd just killed someone? Or condemn him?

bobjugs12

Sandy,

Rockets fired from Hamas have killed 9 Israelis and injured another 182. Not exactly a firework. Have you ever been near an exploding 122mm HE rocket? I have, and it ain't fun! I also noticed you sidestepped the suicide bomber threat as well.
A couple of quotes i've found regarding the actions/reactions:
"Think about this: if you started shooting at a group of police officers, and you killed a relatively small amount, do you think they would just shrug it off, and ignore you? Or do you think they would fire back? Your intent is what would count, whether you killed 1 or 100 officers."
"If a scorpion stings you, do you sting it in return? Or do you crush it under your heel."

As for the question of resistance; if the Germans had invaded then it would have been an illeagal act as part of the second world war. Israel was created by a UN Mandate with 33 countries voting in favour and 13 voting against. Initially the aggression was from Palestinian aggressors against the nation, and Israel responded. They have been doing this ever since.

Now I am not defending behaviour on either side, but the world is not black and white. The nation was created with the best intentions by others (mainly the British), for a race of people persecuted throughout history on a scale the other religions of this world know nothing about.

Philtaz

To be honest, I don't really care about another dead terrorist.

The most persecuted race of people in modern history do their utmost to protect their own, so fair-f***s to them.

They don't use ambulances to ferry weapons, hospitals to mount attacks from or retarded children as suicide bombers.

jackthehat

Like many people, I suspect, I vacillate in my opinion of the Israeli/Palestinian problem.
At every atrocity, I shake my head in sadness and wish that the perpetrators would have found a more peaceable way of registering their grievances...........

I also get caught up in circular reasoning, which I suspect reflects the difficulties faced by both sides in trying to reach a resolution to this inequitable situation.

I don't believe that 'the west' can provide a military solution to resolve the conflict.

It is no surprise to find that fundamental religious views fan both sides of the flames in the 'Holy Land'................

jno

here's the most recent reports of Palestinian death tolls I could find, from 2006:

"The number of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza Strip tripled this year, according to an Israeli human rights organisation. B'Tselem said 660 Palestinians had been killed during 2006, including 141 minors. The report claimed that at least 322 of those killed were not fighters.

At the same time, B'Tselem recorded a drop in the number of Israelis killed during the year. Palestinians killed 17 civilians, including one minor, and six members of the security forces."

660 against 23. Even tigers don't go on the rampage to quite that degree; it takes a human to respond in such a berserk fashion.

http://www.independen...this-year-430218.html

bazwillrun

1: There is no proof whatsoever that Israel or Mossad is involved
2: If anybody thinks for a second that Mossad would act in such an amateurish way, by getting seen on dozens of cameras and 11 people to take out one scummy hamas murderer then you are either very illinformed/stupid/naive.

I bet even mossad are laughing their butts of at such an amateurish hit

jackthehat

^ Ahh, but it could be a double-bluff..........
After all, as you've said, who would believe, for a second, that Mossad would carry out such a amateurish assasination ..........hmmm..........?

jno

quite so, jack. Mossad of course just love everyone thinking that they are superhumanly efficient and successful. But the real question is, as usual, who wanted him dead? You can hardly rule Mossad out of the list.

jake-the-peg

I think the man that was killed ran weapons to the Palestinians

So that would mean that he's a terrorist but Oliver North who ran weapons to the Iranians and funded the Contras is not ?

And that running weapons to the Afghans was great when they were fighting the Russians but not now they're fighting us?

Frankly whenever you hear someone using the word terrorist these days they're either a newspaper or politician trying to control what you think or someone on here who's really gullible

R1Geezer

ok jno, I accept your numbers game analogy.

If you know up front and they do, that retaiation will be a exponentially worse would you still poke that Tiger? Are they so stupid?

Quinlad

That's a separate argument, R1.

The stupidity or otherwise of doing it is one thing. But you seem to focus exclusively on that as a means of letting Israel of the hook.

Does the predictability of it make it any less deplorable?

R1Geezer

No but it shares the deplorablity between the 2 sides. Side A knew their action would cause an effect, did it anyway, side B reacted as expected, blame? evens

Sandy-Wroe

Question Author

Bobjugs12,
the 4th Geneva Convention forbids "transferring its own civilian population into territory it occupies."
The people who come under fire from Palestinian rockets are complicit in War Crimes, as is their government.

birdie1971

Sandy-Wroe – You say above that, “The people who come under fire from Palestinian rockets are complicit in War Crimes, as is their government.”

That's quite a statement. It basically says that every single person is individually responsible their Government's actions.

Using that logic, it could be argued that any British person killed by an Islamic terrorist 'had it coming'. In fact, that is exactly the kind of logic that is used to radicalise young people into committing acts of terror against the 'west'.

Do you consider yourself to be 'fair game' to an Islamic terrorist?

Assuming you live in the UK, do you consider it fair that you are viewed by Islamic fundamentalists as having the same views, morals and ethics as the current UK Government?

birdie1971

Jake – “... Frankly whenever you hear someone using the word terrorist these days they're either a newspaper or politician trying to control what you think or someone on here who's really gullible.”

The definition of terrorism (and terrorist) is a tricky one to pin down. It's rather like the phrase 'antisocial behaviour' – it's difficult to describe specifically but everyone knows it when they see it.

For example, if you were walking to work and someone wearing a suicide bomb detonated themselves in your vicinity causing you extensive injuries, as you were recuperating in hospital and being interviewed by the press, would you describe the bomber as a terrorist? I strongly suspect that you would. Because you had done nothing personally to this individual and yet he was willing to kill you to make a political and/or religious statement.

To suggest that only gullible people use the word 'terrorist' or that those using the word only do so to control what you think is a little naïve.

Sandy-Wroe

Question Author

Birdie1971,
The people living in southern Israel who were within range of Palestinian rockets live on land that was stolen, at gunpoint, from its rightful owners.
This isn't ancient history. There are men and women living in the refugee camps in Gaza who can look across at the land that was stolen from them or their families.
If you're profiting from a crime then, it seems to me, that you are complicit in it.
The people who settled on Palestinian land in what is now southern Israel knew well what they were doing and the possible consequences of their actions. They can't be compared to innocent people on London transport who were killed or injured by Islamic bombers.