Israel.............??

[R1Geezer]

I'm not religious at all and I'm no particular fan of Israel. Presumably the Islam apoligists on here would have preferred it if Israel was never created. So after WW2 would you have not created it at all or created it somewhere else? if not at all then presumably the 4 by 2's would just be spread all over the world as they were before the creation of "the promised Land".

[jno]

I'd have given them a chunk of Germany.

[rov1200]

What surprises me is always the intention of a 2 state solution. The Palestinians may want it. The Israelis may want it. But wouldn't it be more workable if they had just 1 state with a mixture of politicians from both sides sitting round the table. The Palestinians would gain a lot as maybe then they could share the wealth that the Israelis produce and lead to better harmonious relations.

[Bobbisox]

I know where your'e coming from R1 with the term Islam apoligists , Britain was instrumental in makig it a Jewish state in 1947, however to put a Jewish state smack in the middle of Arab states was nothing short of lunacy !

[Gromit]

The Jewish people after WWII were mainly displaced Europeans. It was bonkers to place them in the middle east. If you were to decide they are a people and worthy of a country because they share the same religion rather than nationality, then a European state would have been preferable.

Jewish people are spread all over the world, there are more Jewish people who do not live in Israel, than do.

[tamborine]

Swap Israel with Pakistan - both countries formed by courtesy of Great Britain.

[Bobbisox]

yes tamb and look at the mess they are in, I think Britain in itself has done a lot of bad and stupid things, we are not sqeaky clean !

[tamborine]

Neither are the others Bobbi.....but they dont shed their blood for other races.

[Bobbisox]

sensible or what tamb?

[KARL]

If I am not mistaken, the Jewish leaders were offered other locations, part of Uganda being one such, but they would not accept anything other than "their" soil which they claimed a biblical right to (and no small attachment to as well). The choice was a religious one and the differences between Arab and Jew remain the result of exactly that. I have heard Israelis say they would rather be in Africa, but then those people are not particularly religious. A spectacular set of atrocities had just been committed against the Jews and sentiment was in their favour. 60 years later many feel they have worn the wagon out but the world is nevertheless left with a situation that now seems intractable and poisons the lives of more or less everyone on the planet. It does not seem too much to ask that the two sides stop and seriously think about a solution rather than proceeding with constant retaliation and intransigence. They have more to gain from peace than anyone else.

[Bobbisox]

KARL very profound indeed, only the leaders of these causes don't appear to have the insight you have, mores the pity!

[Ankou]

this decision goes back to the balfour declaration in 1917 (which king faisal had agreed with) and the palestinian mandate was secured by the leaggue of nations in 1922. it was peel commission in 1937 that recommended the two separate states because of the jews that were displaced their by having their german citizenship stripped, causing the subsequent arab revolt. it was to the jews, the promised land by the league of nations - their refuge from the nazis.

"We Arabs... look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organisation to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through; we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home... I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us, so that the countries in which we are mutually interested may once again take their places in the community of the civilised peoples of the world."

king faisal 03 january 1919

[tamborine]

thanx Ankou....I didn't know Faisal tended such a warm welcome to jews - good to learn.

[tamborine]

thoughtless remark Bobbisox......the past bloodshed has given freedom of speech etc we on these Isles enjoy today.

[modeller]

As long as you have people who believe blindly in that book of mythology known as the Old Testament you will never have peace in Israel.

[modeller]

I spent several years in Egypt and the surrounding area. I lost several colleagues who were killed by the Irgun ( Zionist terrorist group ) so I didn't have much sympathy with the Jews and I still don't like their attitude to their settlement programme but the terrorist actions of Fatah and Hamas over many years has not endeared me to their cause either. Ankou do you have recent personal experience of the situation in Israel ?
The Jews were also offered a homeland in Brazil but refused because it was not the promised land of Abraham 5/6 thousand years ago.

[brionon]

I understood that the UK voted against a Jewish State ! and that the Foreign Office was a Hotbed of Arab lovers.

[naomi24]

Although by displacing the Palestinians and recreating the land of Israel, we have acceded to religious belief and to the long-held ambition of the Jewish people to return to the 'promised land', to suggest that it could have been recreated elsewhere is to miss the point entirely. The Jews believe that thousands of years ago God 'promised' them the land we now call Israel and that is the only piece of land that would ever have been acceptable to them.

Without a fervent belief in that initial promise the Jews wouldn't have set themselves apart by considering themselves to be God's chosen people and they would not have been viewed by the rest of the world to be a 'special' case somehow different to the rest of humanity. They would have integrated naturally, and the problems we now see in the Middle East wouldn't exist.

I wouldn't have created Israel at all.

[Ankou]

my thoughts are that it was created in an explicit (and ultimately flawed attempt) to break the fighting factions apart (zionists and arabs). the popular political zionist movement of flocking back to the promised land began in the 19th c, about 50 years before israel was created.

so with or without israel, where jews and arabs mix, tensions have and will always exist.

[naomi24]

Without the promise in the first instance - thousands of years ago - Zionists wouldn't have existed, hence the tensions between the Arabs and the Zionists couldn't have existed. It's all God's fault. ;o)