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The Burka raises it's ugly head once again.
73 Answers
http://tinyurl.com/3344ubb
The French National Assembly, have voted in favour of the ban on the Burka by 335 votes to one.
If this bill is finally scrapped by the European Court of Human Rights, and knowing that the French don't take things lying down, could we see someone at last challenging the European Court of Human Rights?
The French National Assembly, have voted in favour of the ban on the Burka by 335 votes to one.
If this bill is finally scrapped by the European Court of Human Rights, and knowing that the French don't take things lying down, could we see someone at last challenging the European Court of Human Rights?
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AOG
I really do not like the Burka. I do not like the covering of facial expressions, it makes communicating far more difficult than it need be. I myself, not being a Muslim, find the religious, or more rather cultural reasons for it being worn as spurious. Mrs Gromit certainly does not wear one, and I would be appalled if she did.
However, the women who wear them should decide whether they wear them or not. I would hope they did reject them (and I know one or two who have), but I do not believe another person should be allowed to stop another person from wearing what they want (matters of decency excepted).
The Burka is not obscene, dangerous or a threat to British culture, and a Government ban would be unwarranted.
I really do not like the Burka. I do not like the covering of facial expressions, it makes communicating far more difficult than it need be. I myself, not being a Muslim, find the religious, or more rather cultural reasons for it being worn as spurious. Mrs Gromit certainly does not wear one, and I would be appalled if she did.
However, the women who wear them should decide whether they wear them or not. I would hope they did reject them (and I know one or two who have), but I do not believe another person should be allowed to stop another person from wearing what they want (matters of decency excepted).
The Burka is not obscene, dangerous or a threat to British culture, and a Government ban would be unwarranted.
Gromit ...
Muslim women don't wear burkas because they want to.
They wear them because they have grown up in a culture of fear ... where women have no value to society except as the possessions of their men.
Where, if they were divorced by their men, they could neither re-marry, nor find a job, and would starve.
Where a high percentage of female children are aborted before birth so that the mother, who has failed to conceive a son, can try to do better next time.
Where girl babies who do survive to be born, are dumped in wheelie bins and left to die.
THAT is what the burka represents !
Muslim women don't wear burkas because they want to.
They wear them because they have grown up in a culture of fear ... where women have no value to society except as the possessions of their men.
Where, if they were divorced by their men, they could neither re-marry, nor find a job, and would starve.
Where a high percentage of female children are aborted before birth so that the mother, who has failed to conceive a son, can try to do better next time.
Where girl babies who do survive to be born, are dumped in wheelie bins and left to die.
THAT is what the burka represents !
Some Musim women do want to wear them. I know a couple of them and it is their choice that they have decided to dress this way. They have friends, even sisters and cousins who have rejected it, but they still wear it. They are obviously under some pressure to follow tradition, but (going off the ones I know) they are not forced to wear it.
It seems that the major (sensible) objection to this clothing is that there is assumption that women are being forced or at least pressurised into wearing it.
I'm ignoring the objection that it's some sort of foreign garb perverting our way of life as not dissimilar from people being sent home to change from the House of Commons for appearing in trousers rather than breeches.
The Security objection is equally disingenuous until we have an actual problem of groups or burka clad women there is nothing to solve.
The question is whether there is a victim here?
How do we identify and help women being forced to conform to clothing regieme they object to from those who just go along with their societies norms from those who make an active choice?
I'm ignoring the objection that it's some sort of foreign garb perverting our way of life as not dissimilar from people being sent home to change from the House of Commons for appearing in trousers rather than breeches.
The Security objection is equally disingenuous until we have an actual problem of groups or burka clad women there is nothing to solve.
The question is whether there is a victim here?
How do we identify and help women being forced to conform to clothing regieme they object to from those who just go along with their societies norms from those who make an active choice?
As I have posted before (and no doubt will again as this issue is repeatedly addressed) this is a cultural, not a religious issue.
The prevailing culture in this country is that we can see the faces of people we interact with.
Other than Health & Safety, the only people in our culture who cover their faces are robbers and highwaymen.
I don't expect to have to deal with Hoodies covered up with scarves and sunglasses, I don't expect the Bobby on the beat to be hidden behind a balaclava and goggles and I don't expect to deal with any person who is concealing their face from me.
Any form of face concealment except for H&S or certified medical reasons should be outlawed in public regardless of race or religion.
In Malaysia, Muslim women don't wear all this stuff, they may wear a headscarf but they are geared to getting out, working and interacting with people - no probs.
These Arab dress codes belong to a culture where women were not expected (allowed) to go out and do anything. Women who now want to interact in a western society but still wear this concealment are enacting an unworkable clash of cultures.
Either they integrate with the prevailing cultural norms or they do what is traditionally expected; stay at home and don't go out.
.
The prevailing culture in this country is that we can see the faces of people we interact with.
Other than Health & Safety, the only people in our culture who cover their faces are robbers and highwaymen.
I don't expect to have to deal with Hoodies covered up with scarves and sunglasses, I don't expect the Bobby on the beat to be hidden behind a balaclava and goggles and I don't expect to deal with any person who is concealing their face from me.
Any form of face concealment except for H&S or certified medical reasons should be outlawed in public regardless of race or religion.
In Malaysia, Muslim women don't wear all this stuff, they may wear a headscarf but they are geared to getting out, working and interacting with people - no probs.
These Arab dress codes belong to a culture where women were not expected (allowed) to go out and do anything. Women who now want to interact in a western society but still wear this concealment are enacting an unworkable clash of cultures.
Either they integrate with the prevailing cultural norms or they do what is traditionally expected; stay at home and don't go out.
.
So basically you want to force people to conform to your particular personal culture because you feel uncomfortable with it.
Who is the victim here?
You? because you feel uncomfortable?
Sounds to me as if your objection is "I was brought up one way and I don't like change"
and "I don't like change" is a poor argument at the best of times
Who is the victim here?
You? because you feel uncomfortable?
Sounds to me as if your objection is "I was brought up one way and I don't like change"
and "I don't like change" is a poor argument at the best of times
This was discussed on here at consdierable length last night, and zeuhl made much the same comment then. The burqa and hijab/niqab are completely different garments, but those women who wear the veil (niqab) for whatever reason are more visible that those wearing burka (black or blue with a mesh covering for the eyes.
Although I don't like seeing people covered, I too like to see who I am talking to, it seems a great shame that the fact that some blokes have used burkas as coveralls for armed robberies etc means that women who wear this style of clothing (again, for whatever reason) are no longer free to do so.
Although I don't like seeing people covered, I too like to see who I am talking to, it seems a great shame that the fact that some blokes have used burkas as coveralls for armed robberies etc means that women who wear this style of clothing (again, for whatever reason) are no longer free to do so.
Jake
Nothing to do with how someone was brought up.
Our personal values and cultural norms are fundamental to how we interact with people. The prevailing cultural norm in europe (in fact just about anywhere that isn't arab) is that we give a view of our faces to each other.
Face concealment is associated at a fundamental level with guilt and criminality.
In strict arab cultures women are not expected to interact with others or be seen outside the home; this form of dress is a grudging acknowledgement that sometimes they might need to.
I will not deal with anonymous, hidden people. It contravenes my values connected with how people should interact. On the few occasions women in arab dress have dealt with me I have politely said I can't hear what they are saying properly and asked to deal with someone else.
I believe our laws should enshrine everyone's right to open interaction in this way.
.
Nothing to do with how someone was brought up.
Our personal values and cultural norms are fundamental to how we interact with people. The prevailing cultural norm in europe (in fact just about anywhere that isn't arab) is that we give a view of our faces to each other.
Face concealment is associated at a fundamental level with guilt and criminality.
In strict arab cultures women are not expected to interact with others or be seen outside the home; this form of dress is a grudging acknowledgement that sometimes they might need to.
I will not deal with anonymous, hidden people. It contravenes my values connected with how people should interact. On the few occasions women in arab dress have dealt with me I have politely said I can't hear what they are saying properly and asked to deal with someone else.
I believe our laws should enshrine everyone's right to open interaction in this way.
.
Why does there have to be a victim?
Yes if people want to interact with me I expect them to conform to agreed norms about how that is done:
most of us dislike it if people invade our personal space. If there is a cultural group who have been brought up to believe that the way to talk to someone is to stand nose-tip to noe-tip with them then No, I would not like to deal with them either.
anyone who believes it is good manners to converse with you by standing 20 metres away and shouting would be annoying too.
I don't mind what anyone wears and don't believe in banning items of clothing but I do reserve the right to impose standards on how people interact with me.
Wearing wigs to denote status was a fashion. This is about fundamental norms of behaviour deeply embedded in our values of who a person is. In arab culture a woman is a possession a man keeps secured.
Concealing the face conflicts with those values shared by the overwhelming majority for thousands of years - that is why it is more important than fads and fashions.
.
Yes if people want to interact with me I expect them to conform to agreed norms about how that is done:
most of us dislike it if people invade our personal space. If there is a cultural group who have been brought up to believe that the way to talk to someone is to stand nose-tip to noe-tip with them then No, I would not like to deal with them either.
anyone who believes it is good manners to converse with you by standing 20 metres away and shouting would be annoying too.
I don't mind what anyone wears and don't believe in banning items of clothing but I do reserve the right to impose standards on how people interact with me.
Wearing wigs to denote status was a fashion. This is about fundamental norms of behaviour deeply embedded in our values of who a person is. In arab culture a woman is a possession a man keeps secured.
Concealing the face conflicts with those values shared by the overwhelming majority for thousands of years - that is why it is more important than fads and fashions.
.
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