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The Burka raises it's ugly head once again.
73 Answers
http://tinyurl.com/3344ubb
The French National Assembly, have voted in favour of the ban on the Burka by 335 votes to one.
If this bill is finally scrapped by the European Court of Human Rights, and knowing that the French don't take things lying down, could we see someone at last challenging the European Court of Human Rights?
The French National Assembly, have voted in favour of the ban on the Burka by 335 votes to one.
If this bill is finally scrapped by the European Court of Human Rights, and knowing that the French don't take things lying down, could we see someone at last challenging the European Court of Human Rights?
Answers
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///Shall we ban people walking down the street in Wayfarers? ///
If they covered all the face yes for the same reasons as above.
However, they don't!!!
And as I said above, in most cases when people wearing them engage with each other, unless the sun is directly in their eyes, they will remove them - if only temporarily.
This is evidence of a deep seated need to give each other a view of our face. Something the veil forbids.
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If they covered all the face yes for the same reasons as above.
However, they don't!!!
And as I said above, in most cases when people wearing them engage with each other, unless the sun is directly in their eyes, they will remove them - if only temporarily.
This is evidence of a deep seated need to give each other a view of our face. Something the veil forbids.
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I don't think I suggested education, certainly not of the type you advocate, compulsorary and at pain of imprisonment.
I suggest dialogue, "talking to them" was the phrase if memory serves.
In the west if you cover your mouth it means don't speak, in the east it's no big deal to wear a veil that's the issue we need to address to progress.
If the veil is banned it will cause nothing but trouble for no real gain, the reality is that the ban the veil merchants A) don't like Muslims, B) don't like immigrants and C) thrive on conflict.
None of this answers France's motive for introducing this, to cover up their own governmental failures, whilst gullible goons applaud them.
Simple question, do you advocate imprisoning women for the clothes they wear?
I suggest dialogue, "talking to them" was the phrase if memory serves.
In the west if you cover your mouth it means don't speak, in the east it's no big deal to wear a veil that's the issue we need to address to progress.
If the veil is banned it will cause nothing but trouble for no real gain, the reality is that the ban the veil merchants A) don't like Muslims, B) don't like immigrants and C) thrive on conflict.
None of this answers France's motive for introducing this, to cover up their own governmental failures, whilst gullible goons applaud them.
Simple question, do you advocate imprisoning women for the clothes they wear?
Joking apart, I could imprison some women in the high street here for the clothes they wear, let it all hang out - I would prefer to see some dressed much more modestly!
But to return to the topic - orthodox Jewish women still wear wigs, that's a concealer - true you can still see their faces, but you can't ban all religious symbolism IMHO.
People don't trust what is different, more's the pity, and had the burka not been used by mugging men etc this topic might not have needed to be enshrined in law. I still agree with Zeuhl, I like to deal with people whose faces I can see - the same applies to hoodies in my view.
But to return to the topic - orthodox Jewish women still wear wigs, that's a concealer - true you can still see their faces, but you can't ban all religious symbolism IMHO.
People don't trust what is different, more's the pity, and had the burka not been used by mugging men etc this topic might not have needed to be enshrined in law. I still agree with Zeuhl, I like to deal with people whose faces I can see - the same applies to hoodies in my view.
No we don't want to tell people what to wear, but no-one else would expect to be served in, say, a bank, with their face hidden, crash helmets, far more useful than a burka, have to be removed.
In Muslim countries such as Tunisia they are never seen as they are not a religioous requirement. If women do not want their faces to be seen, then stay at home!
In Muslim countries such as Tunisia they are never seen as they are not a religioous requirement. If women do not want their faces to be seen, then stay at home!
Gromit, I've asked you before but I didn't get an answer. Have you spoken about this on a one to one basis with the women you say you're acquainted with? I doubt it very much.
Everton, what a stupid thing to say. You're making it up again. I've never suggested imprisonment - and your accusations of racism serve only to highlight your ignorance. We're talking about human beings here. How would you like to live as they do? Get the chip off your shoulder and think about it!
Jake, you ask who the victims are? The fact is that those who do not choose to wear the burqa simply as a political statement are the victims. They are victims of their upbringing, of their culture, and of the rule of the men in their lives. Tell me, is it right that a woman is prevented by her husband from receiving urgent dental treatment from a male dentist? Is it right that a man confines his wife to the home if the law states that her face must be exposed in public? This is happening in the western world right now, and the women involved, due to the subservient mentality they are brainwashed into, are powerless to oppose it. This what the supporters of the burqa (and the niqab) are condoning. These women should have every opportunity to enjoy the benefits now open to them, but with people (oddly enough usually men) supporting this antiquated, restrictive and frankly suppressive and misogynistic culture, what hope do they have of ever benefiting from the liberty that, as members of the human race, is their right to enjoy?
You men here supporting this may see this sort of political correctness as commendable, but I don't - and I make no apology for that. Rights for women? I don't think so. You're doing these ladies no favours whatsoever, but you're doing their domineering men a great service. Well done chaps!! You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.
Everton, what a stupid thing to say. You're making it up again. I've never suggested imprisonment - and your accusations of racism serve only to highlight your ignorance. We're talking about human beings here. How would you like to live as they do? Get the chip off your shoulder and think about it!
Jake, you ask who the victims are? The fact is that those who do not choose to wear the burqa simply as a political statement are the victims. They are victims of their upbringing, of their culture, and of the rule of the men in their lives. Tell me, is it right that a woman is prevented by her husband from receiving urgent dental treatment from a male dentist? Is it right that a man confines his wife to the home if the law states that her face must be exposed in public? This is happening in the western world right now, and the women involved, due to the subservient mentality they are brainwashed into, are powerless to oppose it. This what the supporters of the burqa (and the niqab) are condoning. These women should have every opportunity to enjoy the benefits now open to them, but with people (oddly enough usually men) supporting this antiquated, restrictive and frankly suppressive and misogynistic culture, what hope do they have of ever benefiting from the liberty that, as members of the human race, is their right to enjoy?
You men here supporting this may see this sort of political correctness as commendable, but I don't - and I make no apology for that. Rights for women? I don't think so. You're doing these ladies no favours whatsoever, but you're doing their domineering men a great service. Well done chaps!! You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.
-- answer removed --
Naomi24
I remember this cropping up before and I did answer you you. I have a couple of Bangladeshi mates, and I have been around to their homes for meals. The wife of one of them wears 'normal' clothes and is not very religious. But the other, wears a scarf and covers up when she goes out. She is not forced to do this, it is her choice. A daft one I grant you, but no one is forcing her to do it.
I am not saying she is representative, and there will be downtrodden women who are bullied by their husbands, but this is the only burka wearing woman I know personally, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that it is her own choice and that it is not forced on her (she is a very forceful woman herself, and my mate is fearful of her).
Sorry if this does not tie in with your idea that women must do it because they are forced to.
I remember this cropping up before and I did answer you you. I have a couple of Bangladeshi mates, and I have been around to their homes for meals. The wife of one of them wears 'normal' clothes and is not very religious. But the other, wears a scarf and covers up when she goes out. She is not forced to do this, it is her choice. A daft one I grant you, but no one is forcing her to do it.
I am not saying she is representative, and there will be downtrodden women who are bullied by their husbands, but this is the only burka wearing woman I know personally, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that it is her own choice and that it is not forced on her (she is a very forceful woman herself, and my mate is fearful of her).
Sorry if this does not tie in with your idea that women must do it because they are forced to.
Gromit, you haven't answered my question either this time or the last time. Have you had a one to one conversation on this subject with one of these women?
It is not my 'idea'. I have travelled widely in the Middle East and I've spoken on a one to one basis with many women and girls on this subject. I have also been invited to try a burqa on and 'feel my pain'. Have you? I don't think so, but until you have please don't add to the burden these women bear by supporting this cultural bullying and inequality. We in the west should be championing their freedom - not condoning the right of their men to continue to subjugate them. These women have never known freedom and by speaking as you do you are in fact supporting the right of their men to continue to confine them intellectually and physically to the mentality of the Dark Ages. Think about it.
It is not my 'idea'. I have travelled widely in the Middle East and I've spoken on a one to one basis with many women and girls on this subject. I have also been invited to try a burqa on and 'feel my pain'. Have you? I don't think so, but until you have please don't add to the burden these women bear by supporting this cultural bullying and inequality. We in the west should be championing their freedom - not condoning the right of their men to continue to subjugate them. These women have never known freedom and by speaking as you do you are in fact supporting the right of their men to continue to confine them intellectually and physically to the mentality of the Dark Ages. Think about it.
Naomi24,
I can assure you this woman would not do anything she didn't want to. I accept this is how she wants to dress and it is not a constant topic of debate whenever we meet. I have talked to her one to one, but her dress was not the subject of conversation. She has very feminist views, and if she felt oppressed she has had many opportunities to tell me or someone else. She doesn't. That may be the result of indoctrination, but I'm afraid she is proud of her religion and dress (As most religious zealots are).
I do know more muslim women who do not follow the traditional dress code and wear 'normal' clothes. I also have friends abroad who are muslim and dress normally.
I am well aware that women are oppressed the world over (and not just in the middle east).
You may have missed my earlier post where I disagreed with wearing the Burka. I am not supporting it, but I do not think that just because I do not like it, is a good enough reason to ban something that other people do want to wear.
I can assure you this woman would not do anything she didn't want to. I accept this is how she wants to dress and it is not a constant topic of debate whenever we meet. I have talked to her one to one, but her dress was not the subject of conversation. She has very feminist views, and if she felt oppressed she has had many opportunities to tell me or someone else. She doesn't. That may be the result of indoctrination, but I'm afraid she is proud of her religion and dress (As most religious zealots are).
I do know more muslim women who do not follow the traditional dress code and wear 'normal' clothes. I also have friends abroad who are muslim and dress normally.
I am well aware that women are oppressed the world over (and not just in the middle east).
You may have missed my earlier post where I disagreed with wearing the Burka. I am not supporting it, but I do not think that just because I do not like it, is a good enough reason to ban something that other people do want to wear.
Some very good arguments from both sides.
Do Muslim husbands force their wives to wear this garb? It appears that there can be no positive answer to this.
Is it acceptable in our society? Some have said "let them wear what they like". a very liberal answer no doubt. But let's turn this on it's head, if the youngsters on some estates, decided to wear ski-masks to walk around in, then who would still say 'let them wear what they like'
Do Muslim husbands force their wives to wear this garb? It appears that there can be no positive answer to this.
Is it acceptable in our society? Some have said "let them wear what they like". a very liberal answer no doubt. But let's turn this on it's head, if the youngsters on some estates, decided to wear ski-masks to walk around in, then who would still say 'let them wear what they like'
-- answer removed --
Totally agree about ski masks - this is exactly my point.
It is fundamental to our preferred way of interacting with people. Putting aside the fact that the burka etc is a hangover of a culture where women's behaviour is restricted, arab etiquette between men also expects that one gives a view of one's face to others; this is a limitation exercised only against women.
I would not 'ban the burka'. My rough draft is thus;
<<
it is illegal, in any public place, to wear, carry or use any garment, appliance or item - or combination of such - that conceal the majority or more of the face.
Exceptions include Health and Safety equipment, certified medical conditions and total head coverings that can be construed as 'fancy dress' or theatrical costumes that are worn for short periods and can be removed on request.
>>
.
It is fundamental to our preferred way of interacting with people. Putting aside the fact that the burka etc is a hangover of a culture where women's behaviour is restricted, arab etiquette between men also expects that one gives a view of one's face to others; this is a limitation exercised only against women.
I would not 'ban the burka'. My rough draft is thus;
<<
it is illegal, in any public place, to wear, carry or use any garment, appliance or item - or combination of such - that conceal the majority or more of the face.
Exceptions include Health and Safety equipment, certified medical conditions and total head coverings that can be construed as 'fancy dress' or theatrical costumes that are worn for short periods and can be removed on request.
>>
.
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