Would we have more control over things like this, if we came out of Europe

[anotheoldgit]

http://tinyurl.com/67l23ru

[rov1100]

I agree with the statement that turning the clock back is too late. We are lumbered with the current system and can only attack it at the edges.

However governments plough on adding to the problems that already exist. If they swapped the bill of Human rights onto a British bill of rights they would go some way of addressing the problem. If they put a freeze on non-EU admission and just take labour from the 200 million EU citizens it would be a step in the right direction.

[New Judge]

[Two Part answer]

Not quite true, jake. But as you often say to me – good try.

This time you are clouding the issue. There is a huge difference between importing goods and importing crime. Indeed pulling out of the EU would not alter our needs, but neither would it substantially alter our imports or exports. But enough diversion, let’s return to AOG’s point.

There is no doubt that organised crime in Romania is far more rife than in almost any other European country. As well as this, the type of crime which OAG refers to is particularly prevalent and the numbers of such crimes in the UK, committed by people from Romania, has increased enormously since Romanians gained access to the UK by virtue of their EU membership. Here’s details of a report from the EU itself:

http://www.nytimes.co...3briefs-Brussels.html

So concerned are other member states about Romanian crime levels that they have denied Romania their membership of the Schengen Agreement (which abolishes border controls) citing, among many other concerns, “the worrying level of organised crime”:

http://www.euractiv.c...-blockade-news-500856

Yes, there is organised crime in the UK but that is an even stronger reason for keeping people out who seek to arrive from a country where it is even more prevalent.

[New Judge]

[Part Two]

So how did we police our borders in earlier times? Discounting the period of WW2 (which perhaps was not entirely representative) the issue was not how we prevent people entering, but how we dealt with them when they arrived. Prior to our membership of the EU it was the UK government who determined who did and did not settle here. Since our membership it is not. All EU citizens have freedom of movement throughout the entire Union. This includes those from Romania whom the UK admitted immediately whilst other members exercised their right o deny them access until 2013.

The problem which AOG has highlighted is one of the many consequences of our membership of the EU. There is little doubt that this particular problem would not exist if either we or Romania were not members.

[anotheoldgit]

Once again Judge you have managed to negotiate round the multitude of diversionary arguments, and addressed the proper issue, in the way only you can.

[Ankou]

its a story that comes up every couple of years. probably since fagin's time.

[modeller]

jake // Pulling out of the EU would not stop our need for such figures it would just make handling it impossibly difficult. // Why would it ?

[New Judge]

I'm afraid, modeller, that jake (like many others) has been bamboozled into believing that the UK cannot survive without importing vast amounts of largely unskilled labour. This is despite the fact that we have between 2m and 5m unemployed (depending which estimate you believe).

The need for some skilled labour exists (largely because the education system in the UK is so poor that we cannot provide the skills that industry needs). But in order ro accommodate this we have to open the doors to the type of people that AOG has mentioned.

[modeller]

judge // (largely because the education system in the UK is so poor that we cannot provide the skills that industry needs).//
I would not say our education is poor but rather it is unbalanced. All the bright, non academic pupils used to take up apprenticeships but now they are persuaded to go to universities and take up art subjects or Mickey Mouse degrees in Media Studies .
So as a country we fail to produce skilled artisans and are saddled with disatisfied students with no jobs. In addition many apprenticeships, where they still exist, are taken up by the less able. Which accounts for much of the poor quality work carried out today. I speak as an ex-teacher, and an employer who use to employ 6 apprentices but stopped doing so as we couldn't get youngsters of the right calibre.
In defence of the Eastern Europeans I have found many of them skilful and hard working.

[TheTruthHere]

Bet Modeller could tell just by looking at the young people who came for an apprenticeship which ones would be sat on their backside and which ones would study and work hard.

[modeller]

cont.judge jake //Pulling out of the EU would not stop our need for such figures it would just make handling it impossibly difficult. // Why would it ?

Norway is not in the EU nor is Russia , Ukraine , Belarus , Turkey and they all trade successfully with the EU as well as the rest of the world. If you make the right goods at the right price people will trade with you . I know some of those countries want to join the EU because they want the freebies that go with it . We don't . We are net contributers to the EU .
There may be political reasons to be friendly with our EU partners but that doesn't mean we have to be in bed with them .

[modeller]

Yes Truth plus looking at their school reports , asking a few questions and their general attitude.
What's more I never picked a wrong one they all turned out good engineers.

[New Judge]

You're quite right about education, modeller. My description of it as "poor" was not quite appropriate.

Indeed many Eastern Europeans are hard working and contribute a lot to our economy. But the downside is that to take advantage of their skills and work ethics we have also to accommodate the type of people AOG refers to. On balance I would suggest we get a raw deal with the drawbacks far outweighing any advantages.

We do not need to belong to the EU. It is an over-regulated corrupt organisation which brings few benefits to its contributing nations. As you have demonstrated, many nations survive perfectly well outside it. They trade with EU members in the same way that we do but are not burdened with the rules and regulations that go with membership.