Listener Crossword 4155 Body of Evidence by Jacques

[Zabadak]

Interesting this one in that I know what the end result should be, with the evident truth clearly displayed, but I can't see how best to get there: I have a number of viable options depending on what you count as a considerable body of letters.
Otherwise a decent set of clues, though I'm not sure about the definition at 1d
Thanks to Jacques and regards to all.

[aputt]

I don't suppose anyone would be kind enough to email me a pdf of this puzzle please?! I let my online subscription expire last year because I became too busy to attempt them each week, but it looks like this one is a corker, and I have a long train journey to Strasbourg tomorrow, so I might allow myself to tackle this one! I'd be most grateful. Cheers, Alastair

[email protected]

[perseverer]

aputt - Word version sent. I hope you can access it.

[Philoctetes]

Contendo - I tend towards 42, which adds a little something to the evident truth, over and above the obvious

[silversolver]

Phew, got there eventually after more than the usual hours of grid-staring. A very nice puzzle indeed. Thanks, Jaques.

[contendo]

Philoctetes - I presume you mean the action itself adds a little something, rather than anything revealed by the action.

[JackDeCrow]

Wow, this one is certainly not lying down! So, is it fair to assume from previous comments that the perfectly good 30+3 letter representation of the truth that appears in the original grid is not what gets moved? (See earlier post about going round in circles!) More importantly, is the truth that gets revealed essentially the same one or do I really need to take a break?!

[contendo]

Are you sure you mean 30, JdeC? If so I've lost you.

[JackDeCrow]

I do indeed. Could you e-mail me on [email protected] and I'll explain what I mean?

[JackDeCrow]

Good grief. Anyone know how to say "Doh!" in any pertinent languages?

[serpentinew]

Jack - I seem to be at the point you were at this morning 30 and 3 make perfect sense. The other numbers mentioned here don't as yet. Whilst its a theme I know well, the evident truth is anything but at the moment. Yet your comment of Doh implies to me the end game is so obvious I can't see it.

[BlackHugh]

I am exactly in the situation as you serpentine - I am relieved that the new one is coming out shortly so I can stop grid staring!

[Speravi]

I came to this very late and after two days I have a grid fill. Also, I have seen enough to agree with borealis’ point that “fully reveal” would have been better in the pre-ramble. I am in the 42 letter camp and have a consistent method of effecting the move that results in the full revelation however, I find myself wanting to use an inconsistent mix of moves to yield the revelation and to make explicit an element (although I’m aware of at least one explanation that would defend leaving unresolved what I should like to see resolved). However, given the apparent fixed eccentricity, perhaps I am asking too much. I may rue my words when the solution is published, but at the moment I’m somewhat underwhelmed: a great idea imperfectly executed – but, at the risk of being pompous or patronising or both, our reach should exceed our grasp on occasion, so thanks to Jaques for an enjoyable puzzling experience.

[JackDeCrow]

Serpentinew - after a bit of welcome encouragement from a contact here, I was saved by the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations. If you've been staring at the grid for as long as I had, you'll soon feel better!

[serpentinew]

Thanks Jack All is clear now

[abns]

Thanks Jack from me as well - I was in your position too and had even worked out what the final grid was likely to look like (from the fortnight comment earlier) but I don't think I would have got there without your suggestion...

I'm pretty sure you're only supposed to highlight the smaller number of squares (i.e. fewer than 30).

Apparently 16% of Germans, 18% of Americans and 19% of Britons disagree with the evident truth. Anyone here?

[JackDeCrow]

Well, I might be prepared to agree that it's not all that evident! Feels good not to be staring at that grid today. Roll on 4156!

[Mysterons]

I wouldn't disagree with the truth, but nor would I agree that the number of letters to be moved is arbitrary. Surely the S in cell 23 is key to confirming the direction in which the 'body' to be moved rotates, giving us the necessary perspective. As they are continuous, all 30 letters must be moved. Apart from the constraint imposed due to the position of its vowel in the truth, I'm sure the second body's eccentricity is also deliberate, alluding to the elliptical nature of the movement - a wonderfully constructed grid !

[Speravi]

Given that so many experienced solvers have achieved a grid fill but are uncertain about some aspects of the move suggests to me that the preamble is inadequate: in which case, that's no reflection on Jaques, the responsibility for removing ambiguity rests with the editorial team.

[cruciverbali]

No criticism of the preamble here - a fine puzzle leading to some interesting background reading, just as a Listener should be.