Azed

[crockshard]

23a Truly 'thankless child', last character to move to centre scale? (5).
We have the answer, but can anyone explain the reasoning. Please see postings on www.crosswordsolver.org/forum.

[Calibax]

Is there a theme? Is there a special way of treating the wordplay?
"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child" suggests a 5 letter proper noun.

[crockshard]

Sorry, Calibax.
The instruction for this clue is, "the definition part leads to the answer to be entered and the (cryptic) remainder leads to an anagram of that answer".
The answer to be entered into the grid is clearly 'range' (definition:scale), which is an anagram of Regan ('thankless child' in King Lear). But why 'truly', and why 'last character to move to centre' when it is an anagram?
I would hate to think the setter has been sloppy, and I cannot bear not to understand the wordplay, especially if the obvious is staring me in the face!

[bibblebub]

Surely Lear calls Goneril the "thankless child" http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/how-sharper-than-serpents-tooth - also have the play in front of me to confirm that.

At present don't know if the centre reference is from the play or maybe to do with Regan being the middle child...

[bibblebub]

Clutching at straws but it could be referring to Act I Scene I when the daughters are saying how much they truly love him that Goneril goes first and Regan second but Cordelia doesn't follow suit.

[crockshard]

Sorry, I went to bed!
Ingenious logic, Bibblebub!But can even the Azed be so convoluted?

[bibblebub]

I doubt it, unless the compiler had drunk a similarly copious volume of wine.

[shikasta]

Can't help on why Regan = truly thankless child but I think the 'last to centre' gives RENGA = linked verse.

[crockshard]

"Good thinking, Batman!"...but I still think the clue is totally ambiguous.

[crockshard]

Shikasta et al: it DOES make sense when one accepts the rules in the pre-amble.
Regan (mistaken by the setter as the truly (= 'so-called' in Chambers) 'thankless child') is an anagram of range (= scale, definition).
The answer to be entered into the grid only needs to be a word which is an anagram of regan/range which appears as a word in Chambers.

[crockshard]

Forget my last post - it is rubbish.
As I said originally, in the down clues, the definition part leads to the answer, and the (cryptic) remainder leads to an anagram of that answer.
So answer is 'range', as we know, from 'scale'/definition in clue.
So has setter not only got the wrong daughter, but is spelling her name Ragen? And why should we need the instruction to move the last character to the centre when it is an anagram anyway?

[bibblebub]

As I said above, I don't think the middle part of the clue is to do with the letters in a name.

When the answer is eventually published will an explanation be given by the setter?

[crockshard]

I hope 'Dr Watson' will explain himself on the azed.&.lit site in a few weeks' time!

[shikasta]

Crockshard, you're right that RENGA fits the preamble:

definition = scale = RANGE = grid entry.

Wordplay gives Regan with last to centre = RENGA - anagram of grid entry & verifiable in Chambers. My guess is that it is a bit convoluted since Regan isn't in Chambers but Renga is & the compiler wanted to ensure that he narrowed it down to 1 specific anagram of Range.

[crockshard]

Yes, Shikasta. My brain has been all the way round it a dozen times and finally settled down!