Listener Crossword No 4280 Face Off By Bero

[trux]

Another rather gentle exercise with easier than normal clues (perhaps perforce) and a not too complex endgame, neatly tieing up all of the thematic material. Will be interesting to see how solvers interpret "identifiably entered" in the preamble. Thanks to BeRo for a brief but nonetheless enjoyable entertainment.

[s_pugh]

Thanks for the encouragement Scorpius, I think it was the pre-amble that put me off (and I agree 100% with Perseverer's comment). Strange that some people thought this a breeze yet I found it far tougher than anything recent and the subject matter scored full marks in the 'obscurity' category for me - though ironically I studied one of the poets way back when (albeit reluctantly). Not one of my favourites I must say but I applaud a fiendish endgame from BeRo. Now to dig out the crayons again.

[JackDeCrow]

I liked the idea behind this crossword and I think it would have been quite a favourite if the clues had actually been a bit harder. As it was, the preamble and end-game seemed a bit out of proportion. Fun, though, so thanks to BeRo. I'm a bit surprised the word "nearest" in the preamble hasn't occasioned a bit more discussion - certainly two ways of interpreting that for at least one of the features in the verse I'm looking at. (And only one of those reminds me of the most controversial puzzle of 2012!)

[borealis]

I think, JackDeCrow, you may have to accept "nearest" in the most obvious way, since any other interpretation depends on typesetting, and makes more than one depiction very difficult.

[Scorpius]

Having encouraged s_pugh to persevere, I may have to give up myself. I think I have the right couplet, but finding it thematically treated in the grid is proving a nightmare. I've tried several permutations of word pairs and keep reaching an impasse, partly because there's a letter in the grid that occurs frequently, but, if I've got the right couplet, only occurs once (apart from the theme word).
Also, I don't understand "initially observable"; there's nothing in the preamble or theme to suggest that letters are deleted from the grid, so I don't understand why the word pairs should be only initially observable.

Am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

[EAChaplin]

Yes friend it's a molehill. Initially observable is the crux of the matter. If you look two lines further on in the poem you will find a glaring hint.

[Cruncher]

Scorpius - I'd peruse everything, both the grid and the rest, and see what jumps out. It's an old Listener trick

[Mesnilpat]

Scorpius, I had the same trouble as you. When the pdm arrives, it seems so obvious, I couldn't believe that I had not seen it sooner.

[aldanna]

I found quite a number of the clues easy, but by no means all of them, unlike many of you it seems. However, once I had the full grid it all fell into place very easily.

[Staurologist]

A good juxtaposition of two examples of the theme. I think that it would be harsh on the composer to suggest that there may be a problem in identifiably entering the letters of the four features. The first poem, now long past its sell-by date, has never been one of my favourites, and the half-dozen lines with which the couplet begins have been used before, because of their obvious cruciverbal relevance, at least once in the Listener, to my knowledge. However, it was delightful to be reminded of the second elegiac verse, which is both amusing and timeless.

[youngoffender]

Hmm, how to enter that final feature? The less obvious adjective is technically nearer, but is that really what the setter intended? I foresee soem serious umbrage from those who leant the 'wrong' way when we get the solution.

[upsetter]

Agree with what others have said.
We feel that in the best Listeners the bells and whistles at some point become an aid to the gridfill and not a just requiring an extended Google at the end.

[Scorpius]

I think I've sorted it out now, thanks to encouragement from several above. It did not help that the puzzle is based on a modern rendering, not on what the poet wrote originally, so I was left with a letter over. I think the preamble should have made that clear.

Now to consider the adjective ambiguity that has exercised the minds of some.

[contendo]

I struggled over the line with a little help from a friend. To me the preamble crosses the border into wilful obscurity. I don't think after filling the grid solvers should be flawed by near-impenetrable prose, though of course once one has seen the light it all makes sense.
I notice that bits of the couplet appear garbled in the bottom half of the grid and I wonder whether BeRo originally planned a different endgame.

[Scorpius]

I cannot see the ambiguity that others can see in the entry of one of the four features. Perhaps that means I'm wrong, but it's fairly clear what's going on the poem, and the grid will be a reflection of that. There's a sense in which the title is doubly apt.

I'm not convinced that the preamble says clearly what it means. I think an adjective would have been better replaced by a past participle.

Anyway, it was good fun. It must have been a bit tricky to construct Thanks to the setter.

[djawhufc]

I agree Scorpius, unless I'm wrong too there seems to be three entries of one type and one that is different. Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[maurice]

"What"s going on in the poem" would suggest to me that the four should be of a kind, not 3 with an exception! There definitely is an ambiguity here. The only question for me is whether it's intentional. If so, I feel cheated; if not, it's incompetent. So much for my 4th experience with what is regarded as the apotheosis in crossword setting.

[djawhufc]

I've just noticed the 4th grid entry that needs to be modified is mentioned twice in the work although how you'd enter it if you used the first time it's mentioned I've no idea.

[jim360]

I've no idea what people are complaining for -- there's no ambiguity, really, and it's clear what is intended.

I'm not sure if it's going to improve your opinion of Listeners or not, maurice, but stil: BeRo is probably one of the top setters out there and his last offering is likely to be in contention for puzzle of the year. And 2013 was a year chock-full of wonderful puzzles.

[djawhufc]

Jim

As a relatively new struggler with The Listener I am sometimes confused by the use of English in the preamble. I have assumed that nearest means closest to. In that case one of the entries would be changed differently to the other 3. I don't know if I'm just confused or am missing the obvious.

[jim360]

The nature of the change is different, but it's still unambiguous and I don't see a problem. "Nearest" is surely nothing to do with actual distance but word separation.