Listner No. 4455: Silence By Mynot

[AHearer]

It took me a little while to spot what was needed in the top and bottom rows, but apart from that a reasonably straighforward offering from MynoT. I was lucky in getting the big word across the middle and the intersecting 7s fairly soon, and with the grid thus divided into quadrants things could proceed quite rapidly. Nice crisp clues, and a chuckle when the final penny dropped. Many thanks, MynoT.

[olichant]

I agree, Scorpius. For my part, the top and bottom rows rang a bell without reference to Chambers which gave me a grid I was happy to send off. I thought it was one of those examples where Chambers obfuscates rather than illuminates - but, whether or not that's the case, it and the title do raise a doubt in my mind.

[Hagen]

Scorpius and Olichant are right - the Chambers entries confuse things. Since one possibility leads to a reasonably unambiguous endgame and the other is as GWITtish as GWIT can be, I'm content to stick with the former and ignore any doubts. No doubt I'll be proved wrong in three weeks' time!

[upsetter]

Can't really imagine the mental process that would lead to the phrase if you didn't know it already.

[midgler]

Sorry but I don't really understand the problem. If there is one phrase which is an established proverb, is found in Chambers, accords with the puzzle's title and leads to a sensible treatment of the two unclued entries and the two three letter words that don't otherwise work; and another phrase which, while grammatical, is/does none of these things, where is the ambiguity?

And I assume that the complaint about too many puzzles requiring internet research is at least partly influenced by last week's Shackleton? In which case I can only repeat that that puzzle was almost entirely self-contained. It was our (including my) collective rush for the internet shortcut that caused all the 6/5 6/6 problems. If we had trusted the setter, we would have arrived at the code first (without guessing the name of the vessel) and, after decoding, it would then have been a simple matter to turn to the web (or book) for confirmation.

[Hagen]

Midgler, my comment about internet research wasn't a complaint, but an observation. Yes, the Shackleton was definitely one that needed online research; the message from the across clues would mean nothing to anybody who didn't know the book, without that information certain aspects of the puzzle would be impossible. It might be possible to encode Row 9 from the message alone, but without knowing the source material the resulting word would mean nothing because you wouldn't know where to confirm it.

I started solving the Listener in the early 90s and I remember that ODQ, a decent encyclopaedia and my scant general knowledge were enough to confirm almost every theme, despite me being an even more rubbish solver then than I am now. These days puzzles rely far more on research than they used to - the layout of real tennis courts, a relatively obscure story by Rabelais, an old BBC hoax and the Kit Williams treasure hunt - all of which would take hours and hours of library research for those without internet access.

We live in the digital age and such a change is inevitable, which is why I don't complain about it. I just think it's time admit that anyone without internet is quite often at a disadvantage when solving the Listener.

[midgler]

Yes, I think that's fair comment. But of course someone in the early nineties could have made the same point about those who didn't own an "ODQ and a decent encyclopedia". Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis....

[Philoctetes]

IIRC, though relaxed recently, the guide to setters does caution about having to use the interwebby. My concern, however, is that the phrase, while just about counting as familiar, is far from being familiar in the format required. There is no hint within the puzzle itself as to either the phrase or the format*, so far as I can see. It is not a cohesive whole, and in that is disappointing from so experienced a setter.
*No, one entry with an unrelated meaning is not a hint

[icynorth]

My free (Camden) library card gives me access to a number of online reference sites including Oxford Reference Online, OED, Grove Art/Music, Who's Who and some newspaper archives. Other UK libraries offer similar services, and free internet terminals are available at most libraries these days. Maybe we can distil a list of essential, freely available online sites which can be referenced in puzzles (so long as the facts are not too obscurely hidden).

[midgler]

Well I suppose you could argue that the 15 letter word is a hint about the phrase's format. Not that I took it....

[BobMinor]

Hmm, I thought I had this one all sorted, but now I'm uncertain as to what's intended for completing the grid. But even if I choose the wrong option and get marked wrong, I'll still consider it as a "correct" solution from my own point of view.

Notwithstanding the uncertainty over the end-game, I think some of the criticism of MynoT and this puzzle has been too harsh. I thought it a perfectly good Listener and enjoyed solving it, making quite rapid progress for much of the grid fill, but then finding the final stages really quite tricky, at least until I'd fathomed the six-word phrase. So thank you, MynoT.

[taittinger]

Just echoing others' comments/complaints:

It seems strange that the rigour and clarity in the (enjoyable) clues are absent from the endgame, which is not unambiguous and a little strained. If this had been more satisfactory, then the instruction about inserting bars would probably not have provoked irritation.

Of course, this is all from the solver's perspective; it may have appeared logical and straightforward to the setter.

I suspect (hope!) that the Chambers listing is a red herring. Anyway, it's always possible that the thematic phrase will also apply - literally - to completed solutions sent in.

[sunny-dave]

I've always like puzzles by MynoT - our minds must move in the same mysterious ways - so this was my first choice from the three Listeners waiting when I got home from my hols.

I wasn't disappointed, the gridfill was a joy - clear and concise clues and a tricky (but not too taxing) carte-blanche made for an entertaining couple of hours.

As a non-submitter I don't give a flying fig about the possible alternatives to my (entirely justifiable) endgame, but I can see that some angst is possible if you're defending a "100% so far" streak.

Thanks MynoT