Listener 4681 1 41 6:10 By Colleague

[upsetter]

Phew - just finished.

A bit of light relief, so now back to last week's monster.

Thanks, Colleague.

[HawkCrossword]

The grid's more than doubled in size in a week, but, as you say, it's no monster. Some nice clues in the mix, though - thanks, Colleague!

[Hagen]

The puzzle came online early afternoon, so for once I get to eat my dinner on time! Not one to frighten the horses, though it did take me a while to see and fully understand the last step. Good fun, thanks Colleague.

[emcee]

Quite a gentle one this week.

Thanks, Colleague.

[sunny-dave]

Good puzzle - nothing too hard, but nice clues and a pleasing finish.

Thanks, Colleague

[Philoctetes]

This is how a relatively simple Listener should be. Some nicely challenging clues, an obscure title, well-constructed endgame and a couple of little tricks into the bargain. One of these where you went for "just one more" clue. Excellent - thanks Colleague

[Scorpius]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how the final grid is an accurate depiction of the reference given by the puzzle title. It seems more like a depiction of a common misquotation. I also think one thematic entry is a bit weak. While it might appear to be justified in the Chambers thesaurus, it falls under a different category that is hardly thematic.
I'm also not keen on the grid. I appreciate that the thematic constraints are severe, and an asymmetric grid was unavoidable, but there are a lot of very short entries, three of which are totally unnecessary.
I agree that there was a good mix of clues, with enough challenging ones that the puzzle wasn't a walkover, but I'm less enthusiatic than others here.

[Hagen]

I thought the same as you state in your first sentence, Scorpius, but it's been suggested elsewhere that the overall shape of the thematic entries is a representation of the first few words of the reference. It's a bit of a stretch but I'm inclined to agree this was the intended idea, which would explains the placement of the thematic items in the grid.

[Scorpius]

Hagen, I'm not sure what you mean, but I can't see anything representing the key word needed, which is the third word of the source.

[Hagen]

I'm not sure I can explain it well without spoilers, but if you draw a curved line around the whole set of thematic cells, you get a shape that sort of looks like a symbol commonly used to represent the key word. I'm not convinced it's not a coincidence, but I think it was intentional.

[Scorpius]

That seems a bit of a stretch, and if it is intended then it relies on chance perception that is not prompted by anything in the preamble or source. I would be slightly more convinced if the longest thematic entry were shorter, starting lower down. As it is, I'm not convinced at all. I shall look forward to the solution, because if that's the intention then it will be mentioned in the solution notes.

[Hagen]

I should have said highlighted thematic cells (the 9-letter groups) - I'm not including the other thematic words in the shape. It's still tenuous, but the only way I can see that the complete reference, rather than the common misquotation, is covered. We shall see...

[Scorpius]

I now see what you are getting at, Hagen, but in order to delineate the shape, the outine would have to encompass a lot more cells than just those of the nine-letter items, and the size and precise shape of the outline would depend on the whim of the drawer. If this had been the setter's intention, surely he would have done something to make it more apparent. The precise placement of the nine-letter items has clearly been determined by the other five items, symmetry, and the limitations of the grid. Anything else that a solver wants to construct from it is surely accidental.

Isn't it far simpler to regard the grid as a representation of the very common misquotation? The setter has given himself some leeway in this respect by saying "The title leads to an explanation..."

[Hagen]

You may well be right, Scorpius. I'm not convinced enough about this possible extra step myself go to any great lengths to defend it, though I still like the idea that Colleague may have tried to represent the words which are too often omitted.

Before I found the 9-letter entries I was trying to treat the sentence as a cryptic clue involving letter substitutions and anagrams! Anyone else do this? Thought not.