listener 4028

[fancydan]

any thoughts on Mr E's latest.
The number connection fills me with dread.
Have solved about half of the clues and found several clashes.
Cheers

[AHearer]

I came back to this just before lunch, and the penny finally dropped. I agree, it's a beautiful construction. I still have one clue to solve (unfortunately, one that translates to five numbers!)

[AHearer]

u10, I think the one shape will move, in accordance with the curved line and the things the shapes represent.

[u10]

I have seen the thematic word in the grid and by swapping the shape with the letter of the same shape a successful outcome is obtained. My only worry is the amount of curvature involved - must be a huge slope from right to left!!

[emcee]

I thought the successful outcome was from putting one shape inside the other - look at the words 'formed' in the 2 special cells.

[u10]

I'm a bit confused here. It's hard to say what I did without giving too much away. I assume that the smaller of the two thematic shapes stays where it is in the grid even though it will need to move in the context of the contest. I moved the larger of the two shapes one square diagonally down to the left. This is where it would receive the first shape via the thematic word. On the other hand.....!!

[cluelessJoe]

Hear-hear Ahearer - I just had a second session at this and am in a similar position - stuck for 19across which contributes a fair deal. Just about everything else is in place, I think I can see where to finish and I have certainly warmed to this one.
I'll have a (hopefully) final crack at it after the tennis.

[emcee]

u10, you should have a word representing the smaller object and another representing the similar shaped larger one. These words are formed from the intersecting lights - as you say, it's very difficult to say any more without giving the whole show away! Once you have these two words I think you'll agree why the smaller object is the only one that moves.

[u10]

Totally agree Emcee. However, unless we move the larger shape, Mr E will beat us!!! See preamble - we must draw a curved arrow and I have assumed that because we have that arrow along the thematic word we don't need to move the smaller shape in the grid - just the larger one. Otherwise we've lost the contest.

[AHearer]

I agree with emcee on this. Surely the curved word can only represent the passage of the smaller shape into the larger? If not, we've resolved to cheating, nay, vandalism, to beat Mr E.

[u10]

Which shape are we going to move in the grid? We can only move one shape and if we don't move the larger one we will lose the contest. Obviously the smaller one has got to move but doesn't the arrow take care of that meaning we don't need to move it from where it is in the grid? I don't see how to draw a curve to the original position of the larger shape - more like a curve and a straight lie. I'm confused.

[emcee]

I can see your point u10 and I think we may have a genuine ambiguity in the puzzle. I've read it as though the arrowed path leads to failure (as predicted by the setter) and in order that the solver prevails the smaller object must move into the larger one.

[cluelessJoe]

Phew, cracked that last clue straight after the tennis (well done Andy) ... very nice puzzle but agree that there's a potential ambiguity in the preamble - just have to hit and hope I guess.

[kwyjibo]

If the head of the arrow touches the square that contains the larger shape then there is no ambiguity in my view.

[Philoctetes]

Still plugging away at this, with only a couple of clues left. I was going to ask if the numbers meant anything, but I have just seen it as I was typing! Still some way to go, I feel.
I was out for the day yesterday, and the first sight of this puzzle i had was on the last train home. Someone had discarded their copy of the Times, open on this page, on the seat. When I read the preamble (this was bout midnight) I understood why.

[midazolam]

well the debate is heating here, I have been chatting with someone who felt different to me, but I am slowly warming to the idea. The 2 ways to look at this are as follows:

1. The smaller shape moves into the larger shape, leaving the original cell blank. Before we do this the setter feels it is too hard to get, but by moving the smaller shape we proved him wrong. This way there is one move and the setter wins.

The flaw is that the arrow is not in a direct path to the larger symbol as it must pass through the letters themselves and so cannot touch the cell with the larger shape in its original position.

2. The larger shape moves one cell to the left, thereby creating the path of the arrow on a direct heading to the larger shape. Leaving the smaller shape where it is the arrow indicates what is going to happen to win the contest for the setter.

The flaw is that this is a real contest and so one cannot physically move the larger shape, only the smaller shape can move in the contest. Also what due you leave after moving the larger shape? A blank cell or swapping the letter with the shape would leave the crossword appearing very weak.

My first instincts were 1. but I can see where 2. is coming from as the path misses the symbol. I still prefer 1. but can anyone give a definite reasoning behind it.

[midazolam]

Sorry I meant at the end of the second paragraph starting with 1. "This way there is one move and we win". I am going for a "lie" down

[Clamzy]

kwyjibo is correct, but wouldn't it have been just perfect if the larger shape had been one square to the left?

[uncletony]

Object 1 can reach object 2 where it is quite satisfactorially by curving one way and then the other, just as it might do in real life on the right terrain.
I understand that the powers that be tend to frown on people attempting to move the secondary objects.

[u10]

Midazolam - As I said earlier, I moved the larger object one square diagonally down and to the left where there is a letter of the same shape - in other words all I did was make an adjustment of the size of the letter. If the large shape was in the original position, two goes are needed to reach it and the solver has not won. Once it has moved to the new position one go is needed and the solver wins.
Having said all that, I'm still missing the answer to the crucial 19Ac. Can anyone give me a nudge? Many thanks.

[fancydan]

Hi.
I still have a couple of answers to solve and have not seen the light yet.
But I suspect the answer is a large river. A two letter "cross" in the middle of something I'm not sure of.
Look upwards??