Listener 4052 - Question by Aedites

[Philoctetes]

This could get tough. Change ringing and lots of cold solving. Nice and meaty at first glance

[7lattens]

I must be extremely obtuse this week -

a.) How do you establish a reason to allocate the 26 letters of the alphabet to their correct group - C,D,E,F,G,

b.) In most of the answers I have I can marry up a letter from an across answer with a letter from the interlocking down clue - this methodology breaks down in line 6 - am I losing my "touch"

[cluelessJoe]

7lattens .. cold solve as many clues as you can, then try them at first unencoded in the grid. Letters clashing will both have to belong to the same group. Once you have clashes with CDEF or G that also tells you to which group they belong

[Cruncher]

7lattens - any C, D, E, F or Gs get entered normally. Any clashing intersecting letter therefore becomes part of relevant bell's letter group

[shelouse]

Sorry, everybody about sparking off such an argument. I stuck by the ODQ for much the same reason as kwyjibo, and because the reference in the preamble to '4,8,4,1,5,3,5' seemed to me to hint at a quotation. In most cases where extra material (such as unused extra letters) are employed there is not generally any indication as to word length. I saw Mysterons'r ef to 3814 but didn't consider it conclusive enough, and also , as definitions supplied in clues generally match exactly those given by Chambers, I was not happy about any of the possible words that suggested themselves. Finding the quotation gave me a PDM that seemed compelling in itself.

7lattens: in addition to the above, if or when you have identified the location of the 20 permutations, note that all letters appearing in them in each row must be different to give yiou 5 different bells.....

[jacinth]

Hmmm....I'll probably get round to starting this one tonight - but I think it's going to mark the end of a good run!

[cluelessJoe]

Agreed Shelouse - I started looking because of the "..4,1,5 .." - otherwise, the words I was considering as possibilities were probably simply 5's which seemed to make a bit of a nonsense of the "4,1"
I think it's poor that there was no hint to look for a quotation .. it's not as if this is one which people would know and use on a day-to-day basis

[robinruth]

I've been avidly following your discussion and am sure Shelouse's six-letter word is correct (since the other two - the golfy one and the nine-letter one don't necessarily have the 'main part') I hadn't spotted the shorter 'correct' word but wonder whether we are really in order to take the somewhat dubious definition of a minor eighteenth century official who 'tells' us something, over and above the weighty definition proposed by Chambers (which doesn't tell us anything of the sort) :) At times like this, I am glad I am not chasing a clear record!

[Clamzy]

I am also not chasing an all correct or even close, but if this results in my losing my place on "the list" I shall be inclined not to submit entries in future years. I'm with Scorpius on this one. However uncletony's words have an ominous ring of truth about them.
I'm not sure what you mean by the "main part" robinruth, but my unclued lights gave 3 features. Two of these are in the definition of the nine letter word and the third is described in Chambers as especially so. But......

[7lattens]

99 pct there - still seeking to address the apparent ambiguity of completing the question beneath - assume there must be a further hidden clue to pinpoint this definition.

The only cold clue which I have a problem with is 19a...anybody else struggling here !

[robinruth]

7lattens - put a party (in brief) into a truncated word for the second word of the clue (one that has to do with falconry!) and you get another obscure word for the final word (definition)

Yes, Clamzy, my problem from the start has been the fact that the nine-letter word illustrates two of the features - as has been said already, the 'with' creates the issue.

[sunny-dave]

Hmmm - not my favourite but reasonably satisfying - I tend towards the quotation camp for the question - but glad I don't submit, so can await the eventual outcome without too much angst.

Not desperately keen on 43ac - my unchecked letters are confirmed by the 'changes' and 7dn - but I still don't like the word 'sift' in the clue

[Mysterons]

Chambers gives the definition as ' to sift through coarse cloth', as in passing through a sieve.

[uncletony]

You never can tell, Clamzy, but my gut instinct is that this crossword will be marked leniently. I certainly think it should.

There is also a valuable lesson to be learnt. Thematic material for the Listener tends to be precise - often word for word where possible- mainly because it's fairer to the solver. Therefore anything that is not word for word, or near as dammit, should be viewed with suspicion. Of course there will be exceptions, but I've found this useful to bear in mind .

[Speravi]

I'm with the quotation faction because it's too great a coincidence otherwise (for me). Having said that, I take Mysterons point that the addition of " 'Tis a" after the question mark would have removed the ambiguity. I'm uneasy about my answer for 40 ac - in what sense can a marsupial be said to be a bird? It may be able to fly, but that doesn't make it a bird: it's neither a member of aves nor feathered. If my deduction is correct, this may make (some) sense, if not, apologies for the confusion.

[Speravi]

Of course, a bird can carry out the action, too. The definition doesn't depend on the Aussie.

[cruciverbali]

40a:
'Socks' = Hose
'in' = i

[Clamzy]

Thanks for your words of wisdom uncletony - something to bear in mind for the future.
I find it inconceivable that Aedites (and the editors) didn't spot the possibiliies, therefore this was a trap. If I'm right I can't share your optimism about leniency.

[andrewvc12]

Got the unclued words and agree that the six letter word is the question. However I'mcompletely stuck on 8d. A little help would be much appreciated.

[robinruth]

Andrewvc12 - look the last word up in a botanical sense on the Internet and separate the clue into a rather obscure synonym for its first word and an obscure five-letter word for the second (that one is near the end of the Bradford list of letters). I'd better leave the thread now before I am banned :)

[starwalker]

Well, I'm amazed. I solved this puzzle quite quickly, chose my missing word and sent it off, without considering that there could be a reasonable alternative and then I discover this long thread of options being bounced around.
Personally, I would not even consider the "golf" answer as it does not fully meet the requirements. The ODQ possibility is interesting for its choice of words, and yet as has been pointed out, there is no indication whatsoever of a quotation link. Additionally, taken out of context of the quotation, the word would not always be an accurate match for the answer. The 9 letter word got my vote, but. . . The editors' decision will be interesting, to say the least.