My apologies, MatydaLover, if I have rubbed you up the wrong way - albeit unwittingly. Like you, we (Jogler) are none of the things that you mentioned - however we are extremely enthusiastic about the puzzle and were very grateful to discover a group of people who were prepared to discuss the clues and give cryptic help without giving the game away. If the conversation strays into other areas - well that's life and rather fun, we thought. We look for the EV thread every week as a matter of interest to see what clues people are finding easy or hard and put in a qustion if really stuck against the wall. Last week several of us spent some time hunting for this particular thread (our faults entirely!) and as the slightly busier partner of Jogler I was very irritated with myself - hence the idea of a more established heading. Anyone new to EV who wants some help with a puzzle will find the thread when googling the most obvious combination and will, no doubt, receive the same help that we did. If, of course, I have misunderstood the dynamics and barged into the TaLCfdWWPaooEV (Teachers and Landowners Club for discussing Wine, Weather, Pens and only occasionally EV) I apologise for intruding. I, however, will continue to search under EV*** and post questions under that banner and will be delighted to hear how the weather is in your part of the country.