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God
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Is anyone here a christian?
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Dear blinkyblinky, Certainty is what you get when you prove something to yourself beyond all reasonable doubt. A good place to start is by observing reality. Reality doesn't lie. Occasionally you may draw the wrong conclusion but if you go back to the observations opon which you based your conclusion you'll usually find the error in your thinking. Knowledge is acquired through a process of observing reality with a desire to understand some aspect of it. Much knowledge has been aquired by those who sought to discover and understand reality. You can learn from them, as they have from others, but you must be able to relate what they teach you to what you already know from observing reality. Attempting to bypass this process will not bring you to knowledge or certainty.
The question you posed shows you have the essential prerequisites to imbark on this journey to knowledge and certainty. Bon Voyage.
One problem I have with people stating that they understand the "nature of the danger" getting on the metaphorical bus (a metaphor that is getting increasingly stretched past its point of elasticity IMO) is that people's understanding of the nature of the danger is changed by their location. A person growing up in the Middle East will most likely take an Islamic position, those in the historically Christian regions more likely to take a Christian one, a Japanese one a Buddhist position etc. All of them will naturally be convinced their position on the issue is the correct one; mibn2cweus's point about suicide bombers is entirely correct. So, there is no consensus on the nature of the danger, or indeed whether it exists at all. My point is that I am not getting on a bus that I believe to be dangerous, I am getting on a bus which I believe is not dangerous at all. Until someone can show me a degree of proof about the lack of safety of the bus that meets my criteria of accetibility, I will continue to ride upon the bus. Showing pages from an ancient manual of dubious and debated provenance, and moreover one riddled with inconsistencies simply won't convince. Especially not when there's loads of other manual all puporting to discuss the same issue and coming to different conclusions.
Mimififi says "If we read the information pack and believe what it has to say and stay off the bus, and follow other rules in the handbook that relate to a good conduct of living, a good moral code, things such as love your neighbour, don't covet anyones ass etc etc, and there turns out to be no danger on that bus, we have lost nothing, but have got fit hearts for being moral and riding bicycles".
I don't think you'll find many people who would disagree with much of the Biblical teaching about common morality; I accept that loving my neighbour is a good thing, and I'm careful not to covet his ass, don't commit adultery etc but I absolutely don't require a religious belief to compel me to behave in this moral fashion. It is not a pre-requisite. How does one explain pre-Christianised cultures that have highly developed sets of moral standards otherwise?
I don't think you'll find many people who would disagree with much of the Biblical teaching about common morality; I accept that loving my neighbour is a good thing, and I'm careful not to covet his ass, don't commit adultery etc but I absolutely don't require a religious belief to compel me to behave in this moral fashion. It is not a pre-requisite. How does one explain pre-Christianised cultures that have highly developed sets of moral standards otherwise?
I think probably, at the end of the day, we could debate until the cows come home and then go back out again in the morning. I come from a position where I realise that I do fall short of perfection. In my life time I have lied, thought badly of people, been selfish, jealous, been covetous, I have been slothful, I have on more occasion than I can possibly count been the person who has not gone the extra mile for his neighbour, I have gossipped about people, hurt people's feelings and so the list goes on. I am a normal person in every respect and I try to always do the right thing. I may look fine on the outside and I have lots of friends who I love dearly; but sometimes, now and in the past, if you could see into my heart and see how badly I behave sometimes, you would spit in my face.
I came to God because I know I fall short of the glory and the perfection of God. I wanted forgiveness and the daily gift of forgiveness and the hope to carry on my pilgrim's progress to be better today than I was yesturday; more loving, more patient; more joyful; kinder; more faithful; more honest; more persevering, in a place where I could continue to strive to be a better person. I believe that in fact, we ALL fall short of the glory of God, however, God does not see my short fallings any longer as I have christ as my ambassador, the price of my life has been paid freely by his own son's blood. Christ will stand in my place at judgement when we will all be held accountable for our existence on earth, existence not only for the things that we have done but also for the things that we have not done, the time when we didn't stop to help, or love or care for. CHildren and adults who do not have the understanding or have never heard the gospel will be judged according to their own understainding and God is a merciful God, I do not believe that he would send away anyone who had not or could not have heard.
You have all heard the gospel on this forum and others similar, and you stand now in a place where you can accept or reject. You will be judged according to what you have heard.
One day, every knee will bow, when God is revealed. How wonderful to be one of the people who had bowed already willingly. My heart's desire is for you all to believe, as you do not understand what you are missing out on, you remid me of the dwarfs in C.S Lewis' "Last Battle" , an analogy to the end times. Face to Face with the king, yet still they cannot see the truth and they suffer a misery because of it. Sadly I know that some of you here, will never believe. There will always be some things about everything that we don't know or understand completely. If this were a discussion about the depths of the oceans or outa space, there wouldn't be anyone who would know everything and be able to answer all questions, yet we all believe in the ocean and outa space. There is an element of faith in Christianity, but it is not always a blind faith
I have seen many miracles during my time as a christian (15 years).
I am not going to post here again, as I feel this debate has run its course for me. I feel at peace that I have said wht was on my heart. I hope that I may have touched even just one persn's heart, but even if I have not, I would still have done the same if I had the time over. There is nothing more important on this earth thatn the saving of souls and healing of broken hearts.
Perfection is a meaningless term apart from setting a standard to be met. If that standard is to never make a mistake than that standard is outside the human realm. We are not born knowing right from wrong. This must be learned and this knowledge will never be complete.
Nevertheless we are responsible for our actions and have an obligation to make reparations for the consequences of our actions.
I accept that I am human, will make mistakes, and must accept responsibility for this. This is why it is important to carefully examine what I believe since this determines the course of my actions. I know of no more powerful incentive to do what is right than the self respect I gain in becoming a better person than the one that was born into this world. If that doesn�t do it for you than my heart goes out to you and to those who are effected by your actions.
Nevertheless we are responsible for our actions and have an obligation to make reparations for the consequences of our actions.
I accept that I am human, will make mistakes, and must accept responsibility for this. This is why it is important to carefully examine what I believe since this determines the course of my actions. I know of no more powerful incentive to do what is right than the self respect I gain in becoming a better person than the one that was born into this world. If that doesn�t do it for you than my heart goes out to you and to those who are effected by your actions.
We can have a different view of things than we do now. If we pray fervently for pure hearts, than god will allow us/ help us to see others the way he does.
I have already done this. Walking around my school, I don';t look at the people who are cussing ar carrying guns around terrible people. I know that they shouldn't do those things, but I see them as individuals who are longing for answers. people who know they need something but don't know where to find it. That's what I try to do. I try to live my life so as to be an example for others. My deepest wish for my lioe is to lead at least one person to Christ and to have something tobe proud of. Sure, I've won the spelling bee at middle school, I'm on the baketball team, soccer team, and am one of the top in my class. All of that adds up to nothing. it's all use less unless I use everything for the glory of God. I desperately pray that ya'll will at least look into christianity and give God a chance. let him show you how much he loves you!
Hello mibn2cweus,
Yup, I am a scientist. It annoys me to see 'god' noodling questions in a science forum. Most of the wars fought here have been fought over religion. Even Red Dwarf showed the stupidity of religion when the cat people fought to near extinction over the religious hats (worn by the followers of Clister), should they be red or green. Lister said they were supposed to be blue.
I am a scientist, so I can't believe in anyones gods. I only came back here to see if this thread was still going. I can't believe it is still burbling on.
I am sorry, but I am convinced that you in the god squad have been brainwashed. Get a life, get out there and be original. I work with nuclear power (and anti cancer drugs made using nuclear power), I listen to Black Sabbath (the evil stuff with Ozzy in), I talk to ghosts and real people, I go to concerts were the people look like they eat babies for lunch. I have never found the need for comfort from a 'god' because I live in the modern/real world. We are an advanced society so you don't need to appease something you don't understand - go out and study it.
There is a saying in the scientific world -"If it is not written down then it is just a rumor", but you still need to back up what you write down and prove with evidence. I believe that you may totally lack any evidence what-so-ever.
Oh heck, now I'm droning on.
Note: I live by Christian values
Message to atheists: I saw some starlings gathering in flocks today. They feel safe in numbers, it gives them security, they are gregarious, they enjoy eachother's company. You wouldn't condemn them for that would you? It's nature and it's natural.
Message to christians: Be very careful when you decide that you are the chosen ones, that you alone will be blessed with wonderful futures while the rest of humanity is literally damned because they are not a member of your sect. History should teach you where that can lead. We are all members of the human race, and it's not the beliefs we spout - political, religious or otherwise - that decide our worth, it's the quality of our hearts. Do you really want to judge others by how far their beliefs coincide with your own? Don't tell us that if we don't acquiesce to your point of view we will go to hell - I don't think it's for you to decide who is blessed and who is damned.
Religion just scratches the surface of this world, and I feel the same about science and reason. For me the world is a deep place, and we can only splash about on the surface without much of an idea about what lies beneath. That's the way I feel, so listening to people tell other people what's true and what's false...
Message to christians: Be very careful when you decide that you are the chosen ones, that you alone will be blessed with wonderful futures while the rest of humanity is literally damned because they are not a member of your sect. History should teach you where that can lead. We are all members of the human race, and it's not the beliefs we spout - political, religious or otherwise - that decide our worth, it's the quality of our hearts. Do you really want to judge others by how far their beliefs coincide with your own? Don't tell us that if we don't acquiesce to your point of view we will go to hell - I don't think it's for you to decide who is blessed and who is damned.
Religion just scratches the surface of this world, and I feel the same about science and reason. For me the world is a deep place, and we can only splash about on the surface without much of an idea about what lies beneath. That's the way I feel, so listening to people tell other people what's true and what's false...
I don�t care to be led anywhere by someone who obviously has contempt for reality, ability and their own accomplishments. I don�t see how this can make the world a better place to live. To the contrary, this demonstrates to me how someone that believes in a life after death has little regard for the precious value of the one life we have.
I become more and more convinced each day that the condition we find the world in is largely due to the influence of people who have let themselves be lead into the oblivion of seeking rewards beyond the grave. It�s not your soul for which I am concerned. You are the one who has to live with what you have done with it. My concern is for those who have to live in a world with people like you while struggling to make the most of what life here on Earth has to offer.
I make no apology for seeking to find joy and happiness on this side of the grave and I would encourage those who are willing to postpone this for a future that cannot and does not exist to consider carefully what they are throwing away. To take one�s life because it has become intolerable is one thing. But to have contempt for the desire to make life a worthwhile endeavor and to try to drag others down with you is unacceptable to me.
I become more and more convinced each day that the condition we find the world in is largely due to the influence of people who have let themselves be lead into the oblivion of seeking rewards beyond the grave. It�s not your soul for which I am concerned. You are the one who has to live with what you have done with it. My concern is for those who have to live in a world with people like you while struggling to make the most of what life here on Earth has to offer.
I make no apology for seeking to find joy and happiness on this side of the grave and I would encourage those who are willing to postpone this for a future that cannot and does not exist to consider carefully what they are throwing away. To take one�s life because it has become intolerable is one thing. But to have contempt for the desire to make life a worthwhile endeavor and to try to drag others down with you is unacceptable to me.
FCA
Don't you see? If you tell me you're heading to heaven because you're a christian and I'm going to be damned because I'm not, well, you don't know that. It's not your decision. If it's not your decision, then you can't be sure. If you're not sure, you shouldn't pass judgement like that, because you don't know. You can't see into the mind of God, so don't be so certain about this.
A lot of christians have stated that we should believe because it's a safe bet. If God exists, we go to heaven. If he doesn't, we lose nothing (so-called pascal wager). But to say that this life isn't worth a thing, you show that, from an environmental point of view at least, Christianity can be very damaging. What if Mibn2 is right? That this is the only world we will ever inhabit. I can think of an example of a very powerful christian who doesn't seem to pay much attention to taking care of this planet - it's certainly not on his list of priorities. It seems like the pascal wager in reverse - christians not taking this world seriously enough ("It's not worth a thing") and risking everything because they believe that the really important life lies elsewhere. Maybe this is the only world. In the absence of any concrete evidence to the contrary, I believe it probably is, and for me it becomes a far more precious thing than it would be if I just thought it was a test run for an eternity in paradise. My suspicion is that an atheist or agnostic might take much better care of this world than a christian who thinks this life doesn't really matter and that God is behind the scenes taking care of things and making sure that justice is done and things work out all right in the end.
Don't you see? If you tell me you're heading to heaven because you're a christian and I'm going to be damned because I'm not, well, you don't know that. It's not your decision. If it's not your decision, then you can't be sure. If you're not sure, you shouldn't pass judgement like that, because you don't know. You can't see into the mind of God, so don't be so certain about this.
A lot of christians have stated that we should believe because it's a safe bet. If God exists, we go to heaven. If he doesn't, we lose nothing (so-called pascal wager). But to say that this life isn't worth a thing, you show that, from an environmental point of view at least, Christianity can be very damaging. What if Mibn2 is right? That this is the only world we will ever inhabit. I can think of an example of a very powerful christian who doesn't seem to pay much attention to taking care of this planet - it's certainly not on his list of priorities. It seems like the pascal wager in reverse - christians not taking this world seriously enough ("It's not worth a thing") and risking everything because they believe that the really important life lies elsewhere. Maybe this is the only world. In the absence of any concrete evidence to the contrary, I believe it probably is, and for me it becomes a far more precious thing than it would be if I just thought it was a test run for an eternity in paradise. My suspicion is that an atheist or agnostic might take much better care of this world than a christian who thinks this life doesn't really matter and that God is behind the scenes taking care of things and making sure that justice is done and things work out all right in the end.
Hey, the posts have finished. Thank god for that! Oh no, hell.... I didn't mean that.
The sun has come out, the sky is blue and the sea calm. I'm off to have a look at the Viking burial ground over the estuary infront of my house. They used to row all the way from Scandinavia - that's why they were mighty Thor. (sorry, that's the best 'god' joke I have)
No. I don't consider this world important, but I'm still gonna take care of it. This isn't my home, heaven is. I'm still living here though, so I'm gonna keep it clean and do whatever I can to make it a better place. I'm not judging ya'll, I just want to let you know what the Bible says. and the Bible clearly states that if you aren't a believer, you're going to hell. everything in the Bible is God's mind. It's what God says about different things. I believe that the Bible gives us a pretty clear look on what God thinks about the whole situation of heaven and hell.
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