Why Vote Tory?

[andrew1707]

Not looking for a fight or any name calling, I just really would like to know...

I have never understood why working class/lower middle class people vote Tory when the Labour party better represent their interests. I know that the Labour Party is not perfect and I understand many of the reasons that people choose not to vote for them... but why vote Tory?

So I would love to hear from Tory voters what it is about the Tory party that earns them their vote.

Thanks
Andrew

[jim360]

I think the point is that Grammar Schools tend to get more resources (obviously), but from a budget that doesn't really change size. We don't invest enough in education, so any imbalance in the system inevitably has consequences for schools that don't get so much investment.

I'm a little puzzled by the "not bright enough" comment. Can you expand on that please Naomi?

I should stress, as I've said in the past, that I don't have a problem with Grammar Schools. It's just a shame that the high standards they encourage are not encouraged, and not properly funded, elsewhere.

[Togo]

//but what about the kids who aren’t as bright or don’t have parents who push them to pass the test?//

Since the beginning of time some kids have been brighter than others. It will be the case until the end of time. Labour has a solution...make the bright kids as indolent and stupid as the least able examples. Except their own kids of course, nothing is too good for them now is it? Perhaps we should break the legs of the fast runners, disfigure all handsome or pretty children, render the articulate dumb, instead of lifting some it must be easier to lower the performance of the able instead.

[naomi24]

Jim, //I'm a little puzzled by the "not bright enough" comment. Can you expand on that please Naomi? //

I would have thought it self-explanatory. As Togo says, since the beginning of time some kids have been brighter than others.

[jim360]

Since the beginning of time a quality education's generally also been the preserve of the wealthy, so I'm not sure that it's entirely worth drawing any conclusions from history on this.

But what I was really asking is how you see the bright/not-so-bright divide in terms of grammar/not-grammar pupils. Do they intersect? Do you see the 11+ exam as a reliable measure of ability?

[naomi24]

Jim, //Do you see the 11+ exam as a reliable measure of ability?//

In my experience, like all exams, it’s a fairly accurate measure.

[jim360]

We've disagreed on that before, so I'll not go into it again, but then that leaves open my first question still.

[andrew1707]

Naomi, Where do yo think the money for these grammar schools is going to come from? The overall education budget is not being increased (quite the opposite!) so the funding given to new grammar schools will take money from existing schools.
The Tories seem to think that by improving life for a few the rest will also be raised up a little bit. Labour want everyone to be given the opportunity to achieve their full potential.

a

[Garaman]

I thought the 11+ was reasonable, but in any case there was a second chance; my brother sat and passed the 13+ as he had proven to be one of the cleverer kids in his secondary modern school.

[naomi24]

Andrew, //Labour want everyone to be given the opportunity to achieve their full potential. //

As usual, Labour depends upon the naivety and trust of its supporters – and as usual it succeeds in pulling the wool over their eyes. Ask yourself why some of your representatives avoid the local Comprehensive for their own children.

[naomi24]

Jim, I don't really know what you're getting at. Do you think everyone has the same capabilities?

[jim360]

At the moment I'm not trying to get at anything before I was sure I understood what your position was. As I say, I don't have a problem with the idea behind Grammar Schools per se -- it's just a question of how you manage and perceive the "not-Grammar" pupils. I'm a not-Grammar kid and turned out all right, educationally. My Dad was a Grammar-school kid and didn't make the most of it.

I don't believe that a child's educational future and potential should be regarded as settled at 11 (or even at 13, 14, etc), so I would hope that people see children not at Grammar schools as still worth investing in, both for general education and other purposes. That's not the same as believing that everyone is equally capable.

[naomi24]

Jim, no one has suggested that children who don’t go to grammar schools aren’t worth investing in. In fact a friend of mine, the product of a Comprehensive school, teaches A-level maths. She didn’t get to grammar school simply because the only thing she excels in is maths and therefore she would have had a very miserable time at grammar school - in fact she would have lost her place - and rightly so because she wouldn't have coped. Harsh perhaps, but a reality nonetheless.

[Garaman]

Some kids are naturally more intelligent than others, and that must be for the reason that the human race wouldn’t function very well if everyone had the same level of intelligence. Cruel perhaps, but the workplace needs a small percentage of bright people and a majority of not-as-bright people. We need to find the potential bright ones early and encourage them to be even brighter, but that shouldn’t be misconstrued with giving up on the others.

[Garaman]

'misconstrued as', sorry.

[andrew1707]

>>Togo
So should all Labour MPs live in council houses as well?... perhaps have to keep whippets and wear flat caps (which would be doffed to their betters).
MPs earn quite a bit of money and like everyone else they have to make choices for their children's education. If they can afford private then so be it. I would hate to think that anyone would not do the best for their children just to make a political point. That doesn't mean they can't have a dream of a Britain that has an education system that gets the best out of all children.

[wolf63]

Why are Grammar schools better than normal schools?

We don't have any of these Grammar Schools.

[Zacs-Master]

Didn't Tora have his avatar banned for being offensive? This one is no better.

[Togo]

I don't object to Labour politicians sending their kids to private or Grammar schools. Just demanding that no one else can whilst doing it. Or denouncing people who wish to whilst excusing each other. Truly the politics of hypocrisy and envy.

[emmie]

because like NJ I have seen the damage done by Labour. so will never ever vote Labour,

[New Judge]

“Emily Thornberry's two kids are at a selective school 14 miles from their home.”

Lady Nugee, MP (aka Emily Thornberry) sent her two sons (not so sure about her daughter) to Dame Alice Owen’s School in Potters Bar. When she was choosing a secondary school for her children she berated the fact that there was not a decent school in Islington (where she lives) which her children could attend. At that time I had a letter published in one of the better newspapers pointing out that, had the Inner London Education Authority not been so keen to implement Anthony Crosland’s pledge to “rid the country of every last *** grammar school” she would have had a perfectly good school just half a mile from her house – Dame Alice Owen’s (or at least, as they were then, Owen’s Boys’ School and the separate Dame Alice Owen’s Girls’ school). The school is no longer a grammar school but has the status of a voluntary aided secondary school. Its admissions policy is partially selective:

“…65 children per year out of the available 200 places, however, are selected according to aptitude and ability as determined by the Governors’ Entrance Examination and an additional 10 places are selected by Music Aptitude tests.”

In addition to this, 10% of places are reserved for children resident in Islington. The school’s original charter and bequest (from 1613) made provision for the education of children specifically from Islington and the governors decided upon its relocation in 1971 to partially retain that provision.

Lady Nugee is the epitome of a champagne socialist. She sends her children to a selective school, she lives in a house in the same road as Tony Blair lived before the 1997 election that must be worth at least £2m; she has property interests in Surrey and South London; she is a Human Rights QC and is married to a Knighted High Court judge (hence her title). Good luck to her with all of that but she is in no position to pontificate to the “lower orders” what they should and should not do with their lives, especially when it comes to the education of their children. Oh and I nearly forgot - I happen to know quite a bit about Dame Alice Owen’s schools as I attended the boys’ school in Islington for seven years.