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Question for Ruby
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Ruby, may I ask you a question? You tell us you're left wing, so do you admire the left wing regimes of other countries, and would you like to see a similar regime in place in this country?
I'd like your thoughts please - and the thoughts of anyone else who has an opinion on the subject.
I'd like your thoughts please - and the thoughts of anyone else who has an opinion on the subject.
Answers
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My thoughts. I don't know if you're well travelled and have first hand experience of such places, but I have, including Communist Russia (when it was Communist Russia, of course), and in my experience under these regimes there is no freedom of speech whatsoever - in fact people look over their shoulders before advancing an opinion. The working people - the vast majority - are poor and living on low wages and in dire conditions, often without running water and with little or no electricity, and although education and health care is free, it is often difficult for people to receive the medical treatment they need without offering a hefty bribe to the doctor. The shops offer little or no choice, people often wait for years with their names on lists for a home telephone or a car - that's if they can afford such luxuries - and there is no opportunity for anyone to improve his situation by taking the initiative and entering into private enterprise, unless they do it illegally, so poverty is the norm. All systems are corrupt to a degree - whatever their colour - but none more so than Socialist/Communist systems, since they really do keep the population poor. Despite what they would have us believe, there is no distribution of wealth - wealthy, privileged and powerful people are still wealthy, privileged and powerful.
Fortunately the world is swiftly changing because quite simply, these systems do not work - greedy human nature sees to that. And think about it. If such systems of government are so wonderful, why do people living under them want so desperately to change them, or indeed, to escape to capitalist countries the moment the opportunity arises?
It's easy for those living in the comfortable, capitalist west to idealise, but remove the rose-coloured spectacles and have a good and honest look around the world, and my bet is that given a choice of domicile, they'd stay right where they are.
Fortunately the world is swiftly changing because quite simply, these systems do not work - greedy human nature sees to that. And think about it. If such systems of government are so wonderful, why do people living under them want so desperately to change them, or indeed, to escape to capitalist countries the moment the opportunity arises?
It's easy for those living in the comfortable, capitalist west to idealise, but remove the rose-coloured spectacles and have a good and honest look around the world, and my bet is that given a choice of domicile, they'd stay right where they are.
Hi naomi,
Just like to put my two pennyworth in,
In my opinion, Socialism is a milder form of Communism, and it only takes a little shift for it to become full blown.
To follow on a bit from your post. I was never in Russia, but in the early '70s', I was in Hong Kong, and had to go into China on a number of occasions.
In Communist China, at that time, the people lived in abject fear of the rulers, there were constant raids on villages, and we would often see arrests, and close to the border, there was a hill which we called 'execution hill', often we would see villagers taken thee in chains and shot.
That, and what you've described, are the real face of Communism.
The point i'm trying to make, is that Communism is nothing more than a dictatorship, in this country, certain people, never really having experianced it, hold romantic ideas about it.
Just like to put my two pennyworth in,
In my opinion, Socialism is a milder form of Communism, and it only takes a little shift for it to become full blown.
To follow on a bit from your post. I was never in Russia, but in the early '70s', I was in Hong Kong, and had to go into China on a number of occasions.
In Communist China, at that time, the people lived in abject fear of the rulers, there were constant raids on villages, and we would often see arrests, and close to the border, there was a hill which we called 'execution hill', often we would see villagers taken thee in chains and shot.
That, and what you've described, are the real face of Communism.
The point i'm trying to make, is that Communism is nothing more than a dictatorship, in this country, certain people, never really having experianced it, hold romantic ideas about it.
The usual answer to this type of question is that the regimes you talk of were not true implementations of communism/socialism and therefore cannot be used to judge whether these systems work or not.
What you actually had there was 'state capitalism' or something. So a true socialist system remains an ideal that we must continue to strive for.
I think that's how the argument goes. Not my opinion you understand, just how I've heard the question answered before.
What you actually had there was 'state capitalism' or something. So a true socialist system remains an ideal that we must continue to strive for.
I think that's how the argument goes. Not my opinion you understand, just how I've heard the question answered before.
I have spent a considerable time in communist Poland and echo everything Naomi said. One is struck by the hypocrisy of the entire system. In the 1970s there were less than 2 million communist party members amongst a population of 35 million Poles. How difficult it was to become a party member with all of its privileges! The system was not open to criticism because only the higher echelons had the authority to comment on communist dogma. For an ordinary person to advise an adherence to Marxist-Leninist principles ran the risk of him or her being branded a Revisionist.
The driving force behind any regime, irrespective of political or religious persuasion, is the relentless pursuit of power.
The driving force behind any regime, irrespective of political or religious persuasion, is the relentless pursuit of power.
Democratic systems are an ideal, when people put them in to practice they become corrupt. (As in a corruption of the idea).
This is not necessarily because people are fundamentaly corrupt but because we react and are governed by our subjective worlds. Does the world revolve around us? Of course it does. We have no experience or idea of the world except by what we know and our interpretation of it.
Hence, while an idea might be good in theory; socialism, communism, capitalism etc... they are (like religions) ideas governed by man. As such they will always be flawed in their practive.
Personally, my own liberal notions are known to a degree on here and there is a society I saw on Tribe called Anuta that had a way of life I much admired and wished we could be more like. However, I don't think it would work in our society because we are all governed by our own needs and surroundings and because our values and the way we conduct our lives are too different to this tribe.
That said, I think consideration and respect for all our fellow human beings on the planet is not an idea that will ever go out of fashion.
But the old saying is true; 'you can please some of the people some of the time...'
This is not necessarily because people are fundamentaly corrupt but because we react and are governed by our subjective worlds. Does the world revolve around us? Of course it does. We have no experience or idea of the world except by what we know and our interpretation of it.
Hence, while an idea might be good in theory; socialism, communism, capitalism etc... they are (like religions) ideas governed by man. As such they will always be flawed in their practive.
Personally, my own liberal notions are known to a degree on here and there is a society I saw on Tribe called Anuta that had a way of life I much admired and wished we could be more like. However, I don't think it would work in our society because we are all governed by our own needs and surroundings and because our values and the way we conduct our lives are too different to this tribe.
That said, I think consideration and respect for all our fellow human beings on the planet is not an idea that will ever go out of fashion.
But the old saying is true; 'you can please some of the people some of the time...'
Naomi,
This is similar to the old arguments that completely contradict themselves but the marxists of the world can not comprehend.
1) Feminism.
a: Biological Determinism is a social construct created by capitalist government to subdue women and promote domesticity.
b: All men are potential rapists.
Ermmmmm, well if that is not biological determinism, I don't know what is
Further, how can complete idiots like George Galloway and Red Ken Livingstone promote love to both muslims and gays. Muslims publically hang gays or stick red hot pokers up their bum holes for tortue.
Also how can a feminist dungaree wearing dyke commie marxist tree hugger be so for islam where women are subject to foul and oppressive treatment?
I am sorry but the whole do-gooding left wing arguments are full of evil and foul contradictions.
All these bloody do-gooders, as perhaps you have hinted at, should go and live in this third world commie regimes.
And lets no forget that Stalin killed more people than Hitler, yet facism always gets the foulest of reception.
Don't get me wrong, ALL extremism is evil, but if I had the choice out of far right or far left, then right will win my vote anyday of the week.
However, please bear in mind I think England should declare war on France, so take my opinions with the pinch of salt they no doubt deserve!!
This is similar to the old arguments that completely contradict themselves but the marxists of the world can not comprehend.
1) Feminism.
a: Biological Determinism is a social construct created by capitalist government to subdue women and promote domesticity.
b: All men are potential rapists.
Ermmmmm, well if that is not biological determinism, I don't know what is
Further, how can complete idiots like George Galloway and Red Ken Livingstone promote love to both muslims and gays. Muslims publically hang gays or stick red hot pokers up their bum holes for tortue.
Also how can a feminist dungaree wearing dyke commie marxist tree hugger be so for islam where women are subject to foul and oppressive treatment?
I am sorry but the whole do-gooding left wing arguments are full of evil and foul contradictions.
All these bloody do-gooders, as perhaps you have hinted at, should go and live in this third world commie regimes.
And lets no forget that Stalin killed more people than Hitler, yet facism always gets the foulest of reception.
Don't get me wrong, ALL extremism is evil, but if I had the choice out of far right or far left, then right will win my vote anyday of the week.
However, please bear in mind I think England should declare war on France, so take my opinions with the pinch of salt they no doubt deserve!!
Democracy gets my vote. I have been a Unison rep for quite a few years now. I used to think of myself as a socialist . But since becoming a union rep and seeing what goes on, and hearing the views of a lot fellow reps particularly those who are also members of The Socialist Workers Party I find myself becoming more and more right wing. I do not get involved in the politics anymore. I am there to represent the views of the people I represent and that is all. Socialism and Communism are both the same in my opinion. Whatever society we live in it has to have leaders. With leadership comes power, and power corrupts. You only have to look at what has happened in the labour party since they came to power. Still, at least in a democracy we can get rid of leaders if we wish to. Not so in Burma or Zimbabwe. Utopia does not, will not ever exist.
I am not a Tory, I voted for Tony Blair last time. But next time ? i just do not know.
I am not a Tory, I voted for Tony Blair last time. But next time ? i just do not know.
Yes, I would like to see socialism introduced, but it must be by the will of the people, not forced on us. The fact that the Soviet Bloc needed secret police and refused to let people leave just showed that they had lost. Democracy must mean multi-party democracy or it is not democracy at all.
That said, the class system in this country needs overthrown. Major industries, especially public services like Telecom, should be publicly owned, not run by big business. Wealth should be redistributed, ending the vast differences betweeen rich and poor. We need free nursery education, good public services and an end to priviledge for the rich. Children should be taught at nursery and school to be aware that we all live in society and that as good citizens we should consider each other. Criminals should be re-educated as well as imprisoned.
How's that for starters?
That said, the class system in this country needs overthrown. Major industries, especially public services like Telecom, should be publicly owned, not run by big business. Wealth should be redistributed, ending the vast differences betweeen rich and poor. We need free nursery education, good public services and an end to priviledge for the rich. Children should be taught at nursery and school to be aware that we all live in society and that as good citizens we should consider each other. Criminals should be re-educated as well as imprisoned.
How's that for starters?
Hi naomi24
No I do not admire the regimes such as you describe. I am not well traveled but have no reason to doubt those who have been to these countries.
China Doll has stolen my answer and put it well so there is not a lot more I can say in response ,(I will however have plenty to say to her about this elsewhere) and as Ludwig points out none of the regimes purporting to be communism/socialism have looked any thing remotely like the ideal. In all of the cases (I think), feudal states which oppressed the poor, were replaced by systems where the poor continued to be oppressed, it�s just the oppressors changed.
This country whilst not perfect has had a liberal history. Often welfare provision has not been through the most altruistic reasons but to avoid the masses behaving like the French during their revolution, the provision of free milk so that the working class fodder was strong enough to work or go to war if necessary. But, whatever the motivation even if it is mostly pragmatic, the result has been a system where there is freedom of speech, welfare provision, and all of this taken for granted.
If I was to look to an other country for inspiration or to admire, it is to the Scandinavian�s who through higher taxation than Britain can afford greater welfare provision. Not been there, only from what people have told me and from my reading.
No I do not admire the regimes such as you describe. I am not well traveled but have no reason to doubt those who have been to these countries.
China Doll has stolen my answer and put it well so there is not a lot more I can say in response ,(I will however have plenty to say to her about this elsewhere) and as Ludwig points out none of the regimes purporting to be communism/socialism have looked any thing remotely like the ideal. In all of the cases (I think), feudal states which oppressed the poor, were replaced by systems where the poor continued to be oppressed, it�s just the oppressors changed.
This country whilst not perfect has had a liberal history. Often welfare provision has not been through the most altruistic reasons but to avoid the masses behaving like the French during their revolution, the provision of free milk so that the working class fodder was strong enough to work or go to war if necessary. But, whatever the motivation even if it is mostly pragmatic, the result has been a system where there is freedom of speech, welfare provision, and all of this taken for granted.
If I was to look to an other country for inspiration or to admire, it is to the Scandinavian�s who through higher taxation than Britain can afford greater welfare provision. Not been there, only from what people have told me and from my reading.
I work in the Republic of Moldova and Romania. My home in Romania is for abandoned street children. In Moldova, my home is for victims of child-trafficking. However, over the past three years I�ve also focused on social development through the opening of a school and community centre.
Whilst each country has lived under the fist of Communism, their people have suffered more due to its leaders. Ceausescu�s legacy still covers the breadth and width of the country. His �hub� government, where Bucharest had everything and the outer regions had nothing continue to cause suffering. And I�d go so far as to suggest that Romania�s entrance into the EU has been both untimely and farcical. For it would appear that all those monitors and all those individuals who spend their lives making tick marks on sheets never once got outside of Bucharest.
Continued:
Whilst each country has lived under the fist of Communism, their people have suffered more due to its leaders. Ceausescu�s legacy still covers the breadth and width of the country. His �hub� government, where Bucharest had everything and the outer regions had nothing continue to cause suffering. And I�d go so far as to suggest that Romania�s entrance into the EU has been both untimely and farcical. For it would appear that all those monitors and all those individuals who spend their lives making tick marks on sheets never once got outside of Bucharest.
Continued:
Part 2
Not long after the fall of Ceausescu, the government moved to democracy. But it wasn�t a short time later, as the homeless children wandered the streets, the hospitals remained empty and the schools languished, that I stood on the streets one late night, watching tanks take their position around the town. That was the evening that voting results were being tallied, showing that Romania�s people had had enough of democracy and were voting back a communist government.
Moldova is a democracy. She is struggling, but making remarkable strides. However, her government is a mix of communist and democratic leaders. The village where my school is located is unique beyond belief- it has not only a democratic government, but the mayor is a woman. She is in her third term, where in the second term she received a 96 percent vote and in the third term she received a 94 percent vote.
But no matter how she tries, no matter how any of us try, we can�t seem to find utopia in socialism or democracy. I suspect this is the case for many governments around the world. And perhaps those governments are finding, just as we do, that in the interest of survival, in the interest of changing lives for the better, it is more to the benefit of the people as a whole, to choose one from column A and one from column B as we navigate those often murky waters of survival.
Fr. Bill
Not long after the fall of Ceausescu, the government moved to democracy. But it wasn�t a short time later, as the homeless children wandered the streets, the hospitals remained empty and the schools languished, that I stood on the streets one late night, watching tanks take their position around the town. That was the evening that voting results were being tallied, showing that Romania�s people had had enough of democracy and were voting back a communist government.
Moldova is a democracy. She is struggling, but making remarkable strides. However, her government is a mix of communist and democratic leaders. The village where my school is located is unique beyond belief- it has not only a democratic government, but the mayor is a woman. She is in her third term, where in the second term she received a 96 percent vote and in the third term she received a 94 percent vote.
But no matter how she tries, no matter how any of us try, we can�t seem to find utopia in socialism or democracy. I suspect this is the case for many governments around the world. And perhaps those governments are finding, just as we do, that in the interest of survival, in the interest of changing lives for the better, it is more to the benefit of the people as a whole, to choose one from column A and one from column B as we navigate those often murky waters of survival.
Fr. Bill
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