children of fundalmentalists

[pimlico]

I know this is a sensitive subject! - I was on a bus last week in east London and two women got on - they were fully covered up in black, including long black gloves. This is a common sight round here - the thing was, they had a small child with them, who couldn't have been more than . She (presuming it was a girl!) had her head completely covered, with a a thin fleece and then a black veil over the top, ith only a tiny slit for her to see out of. She was blundering around as she obviously could hardly see. Surely this is child abuse? Wouldn't any child subjected to this grow up with severe psychological problems? I wanted to say something but it is such a sensitive subject and I couldn't think what to say. What does does anyone think?

[Octavius]

A veil as a political statement? Eh what?

Are you saying that their cultural identity is politically motivated then? As that would contradict what you said about choice and the behest of their husband.

As in CDs example would you also say that of the Hasidic jews?

[naomi24]

In my experience, children don't notice colour, religion, accents, or anything else - it's only we adults that go in for things like that - but children are likely to ask why someone has her face covered.

[Octavius]

Naomi, in my experience children are content to notice and point out and question all differences, mostly without preconceived disdain or prejudice.

[naomi24]

In the case of someone who chooses to hide themselves so completely from the world, and in the current international climate - and I think that's what we tend to overlook - yes, I am saying it's politically motivated. That may not be a popular opinion amongst ABers, but nevertheless, that is my opinion.

No, I wouldn't say the same of Hasidic Jews.

[naomi24]

I disagree. I don't think children, in general, notice differences, unless it's something very out of the ordinary, which colour and language are not.

[Gromit]

It is my experience that children notice everything. Ginger hair, spectacles, dumpyness, buck teeth. Whatever the difference, they will spot it and probably be mercilessly cruel about it.

It is also my experience that if you tell a child that their friends face is covered because that is how children of the Islamic religion dress, they will just accept it.

[naomi24]

Older children will pick fault with other children, but not young ones.

[Le Chat]

Octavius asks "how does covering yourself up make you "more of a sexual object"? I am bamboozled.
My parents have just returned from Egypt, from an area where the women are mostly covered. This in turn, has made the men look at women who are dressed "normally" as objects purely of sex. My mother (who is 73) was propositioned twice by men. Once in the lift at the hotel and secondly when my Dad was dawdling about 6ft behind her , looking for his pen. So it makes women who are not covered from head to toe more of a sexual object.
Incidentally, two women in their 40's, who were travelling and spent a night at the hotel had decided to cut their holiday short as the men were so disgusting-touching them up, shouting things and trying to molest them. The covering up does not do anything for equality.

[Gromit]

There are many children in my neighbourhood who dress modestly for school (and other times). I agree that it is divisive that they cling to a foreign culture so strongly. Many have grandparents who have been here for fifty years, but their tongue at home is still Bangladeshi.

However, I have never seen it as abuse or cruel or anything other than just keeping a cultural identity.

[Octavius]

�In the current climate�??

So these people should stop following the traditions that have been passed down to them through generations, simply because in the current climate it simply isn�t acceptable to you and goes against your mainstream political ideology? Anyone would think they were wearing swastikas.

Maybe we should tell all the pearly kings and queens to stop it because it just aint cool any more.

Le Chat, you are confusing perceptions. Perhaps Western women when in Muslim countries are perceived to be up for it, strumpets, who display themselves for the benefit of attracting this sort of attention. Maybe the men are just desperate dirty old perverts. I still don�t see this as a result of veil-wearing women.

I was touched up by two Italian men on a bus in Rome back in the 80�s � and before anyone pipes up, no it was not something I welcomed or enjoyed � so can I blame Wham et al for promoting the idea that all British men were new romantic bi-sexuals?

[naomi24]

I can understand people wishing to cling to their cultural identity, and dressing modestly as their religion dictates - but hiding children so completely from society in general is something entirely different.

[Octavius]

I am not saying it is not congruent within British established dress codes, but that they have the right to wear them, and have their children wear them without fear of prejudice or someone on the bus accusing them of child cruelty.

If someone takes issue with this then it is their own problem, not that of the wearer.

[naomi24]

Octavius, are you denying that there is a 'current climate' then? Although some may be doing it to continue a tradition, in my opinion all are not. I wonder why one of these women who you say care so strongly about tradition would have abandoned her veil in order to secure a job that required the face to be seen, and upon commencing employment, immediately take to wearing the veil - and then cry 'religious intolerance' the moment her employers objected because she could not satisfactorily carry out her duties? Her passion for tradition couldn't have been that strong, otherwise she wouldn't have abandoned the veil in the first place.

It doesn't go against my 'mainstream political ideology' as you put it. I simply say what I see.

In answer to your latest post, they do have the right to wear them, and they have the right to dress their children as they see fit. However, I believe that dressing a child living in western society in such a manner will create problems for the child, particularly where integration is concerned.

[Le Chat]

Octavius, I have to disagree. My mother is 73 for god's sake - hardly 'up for it!' The other travellers wore trousers and shirts. As I see it, the lack of female flesh makes for a huge division in the views of the men who do not see it as 'normal.' on a regular basis. It entirely sexualises the women who are not covered.
You were touched up by 2 men? I thought you were a man? Or were they gay Italians?

[keyplus90]

Let me tell you few things. In Quran Allah tells men to lower their gaze before telling women to cover themselves, As far as covering of face is concerned, few scholars agree with this as a choice but many say that face should not be covered. Face covering is to do to with few cultural reasons as well.

Now about the kids, when someone believes that their life style is the best then they would like their children to do the same. Someone said here that people do not say anything when girls as young as 7 and 8 dress like models with full makeup. And I am sure when we have record teenage pregnancy in whole Europe then it is among those people who dress their kids more like models than the one who covers them. I always say that in the West women has to take her clothes off to look beautiful and that is the reason why more and more people are going for face lifts, breast implant, botox and so on. No one is willing to accept old age with dignity. If you dress like in Islam then you would not need all these things. Your beauty should only be for your husband and vice versa.

[naomi24]

I don't see anyone here suggesting that children should be dressed as models and allowed to wear make-up.

[Octavius]

Naomi, you throw one isolated example into the mix and call that the current climate?

Did this woman and her child in the same way? Pimlico doesn�t say that, merely they were going about their business on a bus, when this �problem� arose. And because you are quivering over random acts of arrogance in the current climate, that individuals wishing to wear veils and dress their children the same in public should be chided?

Le Chat, they were either gay Italians, or I was gorgeously irresistible. I think you know the answer.

[naomi24]

Octavius, Let's not exaggerate here. I'm hardly 'quivering' over random acts of arrogance, merely giving an example of how women who, according to you, are so keen to preserve their culture and traditions, will abandon it (at the drop of a veil) when suits them to do so. And you're fully aware that I wasn't referring to that one act as 'the current climate', so I won't even go into that.

Fine, we know what the women want, and we know you support them, but what about the effect on the children? Don't they matter? They're the ones we should be considering, but it seems in your efforts to support the right of mothers to insist on covering their female offspring from head to toe, you are completely forgetting the children who are forced to live their young lives hidden from the world. Yes, I think these women should be chided. What they are doing is cruel and completely unnecessary. Can you imagine what it must be like for a little girl to go to school dressed like this? Think about it. Imagine her trying to join in sports, running a race, swimming, skipping in the playground, and doing all the things children like to do - or even trying to eat her school lunch with her friends. It's ok for girls to be subjected to this, but can you imagine the outcry if the same criteria applied to boys? It would be a sorry sight indeed to see a little boy covered from head to toe trying to kick a football around with his mates.

Incidentally, Michael Jackson covered his children's faces, and that didn't go down too well with society, did it? I wonder why? Oh, yes, of course. It's because we all think he's nuts!

[naomi24]

Keyplus says Your beauty should only be for your husband and vice versa. Now there's a thought. Maybe Muslim men should cover themselves fully too, and, as Keyplus says, keep their beauty only for their wives. At least that way they would be certain they'd be quite safe from the clutches of we wicked, debauched, western women.

[Octavius]

Naomi, I imagine the child would be placed within an educational environment where the surroundings and presences would be acceptable for the removal of the veil. If not, then the parents will have a decision to make.

I never said I supported them wearing veils, merely their right to have the choice to. I admit there are circumstances where I would concede it is inappropriate since we do not have the separation provisions they perhaps have in their national countries, but they still deserve the right to wear them.

Michael Jackson also dangles babies from balconies, are you using him as a comparative analysis to the family on the bus?