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What is English culture?
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On a thread (that vanished) someone said that they felt English culture was being eroded
I asked what English culture was but didn't get much of an answer
What is English culture - surely not Warm Beer and Morris dancers
I asked what English culture was but didn't get much of an answer
What is English culture - surely not Warm Beer and Morris dancers
Answers
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I suppose the first question to ask is "what is English?" these days.
Culture is a pretty nebulous concept, but would probably include (amongst many others):
Language
Arts
Food
Dress
Religion
Legal system
Family attitudes (marriage etc.)
Individual attitudes (fair-play, politeness, reserve, work ethic etc.)
A society's culture is necessarily quite fluid, but I believe certain core elements remain to identify that culture individual.
Culture is a pretty nebulous concept, but would probably include (amongst many others):
Language
Arts
Food
Dress
Religion
Legal system
Family attitudes (marriage etc.)
Individual attitudes (fair-play, politeness, reserve, work ethic etc.)
A society's culture is necessarily quite fluid, but I believe certain core elements remain to identify that culture individual.
Language - US, Australia,Canada,Newzealand.....
Arts - pretty universal Western no?
Food - les rost beef?
Dress? - you have to be kidding
Religion - 3% church attendance - and religions are pretty Universal too
Legal system - OK possibly
Familly attitudes - no way that varies hugely across Answer bank let alone the country
Individual attitudes - ditto only more so
We never had much of a common culture because in earlier times communication was limited so there were local regional cultures. In modern times communication has become so rapid and easy that a Western culture hasd sprung up.
Maybe there was a brief spell where there was a British culture between these say 1945-1965 and I guess if you gre wup then it might feel as if we lost something really important
But it wasn't immigration that caused it, it was international TV and cheap travel
Arts - pretty universal Western no?
Food - les rost beef?
Dress? - you have to be kidding
Religion - 3% church attendance - and religions are pretty Universal too
Legal system - OK possibly
Familly attitudes - no way that varies hugely across Answer bank let alone the country
Individual attitudes - ditto only more so
We never had much of a common culture because in earlier times communication was limited so there were local regional cultures. In modern times communication has become so rapid and easy that a Western culture hasd sprung up.
Maybe there was a brief spell where there was a British culture between these say 1945-1965 and I guess if you gre wup then it might feel as if we lost something really important
But it wasn't immigration that caused it, it was international TV and cheap travel
Culture is a combination of things. It isn't nullified simply because other countries have some or all of the same things. It also changes over time, someone born in the 1930s will consider a different combination things part of their culture than someone born in the 1980s say.
Travel may have brought a small number of things back to the UK, cuisine mainly I suspect; TV will mainly introduce US behaviour; but immigration is also having an affect.
Travel may have brought a small number of things back to the UK, cuisine mainly I suspect; TV will mainly introduce US behaviour; but immigration is also having an affect.
Dear Jake,
Orwell was quite good at this - although you may think him out of date.
You have obviously read this at some point: http://www.george-orw...English_Genius/0.html
Here you have Orwell writing on the nation of shop keepers and stamp collectors - you can draw a parallel with Winston in 1984 when he hears the "Bells of St.Clements" nursery rhyme. At first you could think that this is somehow a sign that a culture cannot be eradicated - but then - why did Orwell reduce the sum of pre-Big Brother "art and culture" to a clipped piece of a Nursery rhyme?
Here you can see some slightly earlier English Culture: http://dl.lib.brown.edu/mjp/journals.html BLAST in particular (Although it was written in part by Americans and an Anglo-Canadian). BLAST, in part, deals with a lack of national identity for the English/British and they associate England with being seafarers, nomads, adventurers.
As for Modern British culture we have "The New Plain Style" in Poetry which can be rather good, we have young artists producing reasonable work. And "The Pub" still exists in one form or another - so it can't be all bad!
All the best,
Spare Ed
Orwell was quite good at this - although you may think him out of date.
You have obviously read this at some point: http://www.george-orw...English_Genius/0.html
Here you have Orwell writing on the nation of shop keepers and stamp collectors - you can draw a parallel with Winston in 1984 when he hears the "Bells of St.Clements" nursery rhyme. At first you could think that this is somehow a sign that a culture cannot be eradicated - but then - why did Orwell reduce the sum of pre-Big Brother "art and culture" to a clipped piece of a Nursery rhyme?
Here you can see some slightly earlier English Culture: http://dl.lib.brown.edu/mjp/journals.html BLAST in particular (Although it was written in part by Americans and an Anglo-Canadian). BLAST, in part, deals with a lack of national identity for the English/British and they associate England with being seafarers, nomads, adventurers.
As for Modern British culture we have "The New Plain Style" in Poetry which can be rather good, we have young artists producing reasonable work. And "The Pub" still exists in one form or another - so it can't be all bad!
All the best,
Spare Ed
talking of orwell have you got one of these on a lampost near you
http://s655.photobuck...current=orwell003.jpg
http://s655.photobuck...current=orwell003.jpg
English culture in anything quintisentially English. TBH Jake you're not interested in being educated on what that is, rather than tear apart anyones attempt to answer your question with tenous and pedantic observations.
There are many example of Englishness exported across the world due to the colonies, migration etc. Just because these exports are internationally known (such as language, music, arts, literature etc) that doesnt detract from its English source.
'Warm Beer'? Like we have the climate for ice cold tasteless knats pee lager! Britain produces some of the best cask conditioned ales in the world, any beer enthusiast worldwide will be testament to that.
As for morris dancing, not ours; isnt it something to do with the Moors of North Africa?
There are many example of Englishness exported across the world due to the colonies, migration etc. Just because these exports are internationally known (such as language, music, arts, literature etc) that doesnt detract from its English source.
'Warm Beer'? Like we have the climate for ice cold tasteless knats pee lager! Britain produces some of the best cask conditioned ales in the world, any beer enthusiast worldwide will be testament to that.
As for morris dancing, not ours; isnt it something to do with the Moors of North Africa?
[Two Part Post]
I have noted your concern over this issue, jake, in a number of responses you have made to questions which raise it.
You’ll be surprised to hear (!) that I agree with much of what you say. “English” culture cannot readily be defined. Come to that, I imagine there are few nations where the culture can be properly defined and here in England we tend to pick on a particular trait that we know of to describe a national cultural identity. (e.g. French – long lunches, frogs’ legs and onion sellers with striped jumpers and berets; German – steins of beer, sausages; Australia – ice cold beer and sports fanaticism). These are no more descriptive of the culture of those nations than warm beer is of England.
The culture of a country is more than these things, but I cannot easily say what it really is. But I think two things can be said with some confidence:
Culture is (and always has) constantly evolved. My notion of English culture is different to my parents, and their notion was no doubt different to my grandparents. Fifty years ago almost every family sat down to Sunday roast at lunch time (Sunday roast is probably the thing that most people over 50 would mention as part of English “culture”). Today very few do so, and even the “family” has a completely different meaning.
I think the biggest concern that many people have is the alarmingly rapid changes they are seeing to “their culture”. Previously changes evolved over a generation or two and individuals did not really see much radical change in their lifetimes. Today changes take place much more quickly. The reasons for this are manifold, but (and here’s where we will probably disagree) I think immigration plays a big role. It is not the only cause of people’s fears, but probably the most significant.
I have noted your concern over this issue, jake, in a number of responses you have made to questions which raise it.
You’ll be surprised to hear (!) that I agree with much of what you say. “English” culture cannot readily be defined. Come to that, I imagine there are few nations where the culture can be properly defined and here in England we tend to pick on a particular trait that we know of to describe a national cultural identity. (e.g. French – long lunches, frogs’ legs and onion sellers with striped jumpers and berets; German – steins of beer, sausages; Australia – ice cold beer and sports fanaticism). These are no more descriptive of the culture of those nations than warm beer is of England.
The culture of a country is more than these things, but I cannot easily say what it really is. But I think two things can be said with some confidence:
Culture is (and always has) constantly evolved. My notion of English culture is different to my parents, and their notion was no doubt different to my grandparents. Fifty years ago almost every family sat down to Sunday roast at lunch time (Sunday roast is probably the thing that most people over 50 would mention as part of English “culture”). Today very few do so, and even the “family” has a completely different meaning.
I think the biggest concern that many people have is the alarmingly rapid changes they are seeing to “their culture”. Previously changes evolved over a generation or two and individuals did not really see much radical change in their lifetimes. Today changes take place much more quickly. The reasons for this are manifold, but (and here’s where we will probably disagree) I think immigration plays a big role. It is not the only cause of people’s fears, but probably the most significant.
[Part Two]
Large numbers of people have settled here, bringing with them their own values and identities. Yes, I know they always have, and that’s why our culture has evolved. We’ve taken on some of theirs and they have (hopefully) taken on some of ours. But the numbers arriving recently make the earlier waves seem insignificant.
You are fortunate in that you seem able to embrace these changes and, if I’m right, positively welcome them. Others are not so lucky.
There are large numbers of people in England who have lived in England all their lives and consider themselves “English” (and let’s not, for the moment, get bogged down in what that means). They have seen the areas in which they live totally transformed by newcomers, many of whom seem to have no interest in integrating into the way of life that existed when they arrived. These changes have occurred comparatively rapidly and that is what frightens them. Many people feel comfortable with what they know and are scared by the rapid and radical changes they are seeing around them. They should be heard and not denounced as “Little Englanders” or, even worse, as racists. They are not being heard by the mainstream parties and that is where, if we are not careful, parties like the BNP get a foothold.
Large numbers of people have settled here, bringing with them their own values and identities. Yes, I know they always have, and that’s why our culture has evolved. We’ve taken on some of theirs and they have (hopefully) taken on some of ours. But the numbers arriving recently make the earlier waves seem insignificant.
You are fortunate in that you seem able to embrace these changes and, if I’m right, positively welcome them. Others are not so lucky.
There are large numbers of people in England who have lived in England all their lives and consider themselves “English” (and let’s not, for the moment, get bogged down in what that means). They have seen the areas in which they live totally transformed by newcomers, many of whom seem to have no interest in integrating into the way of life that existed when they arrived. These changes have occurred comparatively rapidly and that is what frightens them. Many people feel comfortable with what they know and are scared by the rapid and radical changes they are seeing around them. They should be heard and not denounced as “Little Englanders” or, even worse, as racists. They are not being heard by the mainstream parties and that is where, if we are not careful, parties like the BNP get a foothold.
I feel very English when I go abroad, it's odd, I love travel, I'd often like to move to another country, but, when I'm away I miss England.
A friend of mine lived in Taiwan for two years, he came home because he missed England.
What is English culture?
We have our own sausages, you can't buy fresh milk abroad, custard, gravy, I honestly think English culture is not unlike any other it is principally based on it's food.
That said national pallettes change, and the traditional meals we eat often bears no recognition to the food of 100 years ago.
A friend of mine lived in Taiwan for two years, he came home because he missed England.
What is English culture?
We have our own sausages, you can't buy fresh milk abroad, custard, gravy, I honestly think English culture is not unlike any other it is principally based on it's food.
That said national pallettes change, and the traditional meals we eat often bears no recognition to the food of 100 years ago.
Another consideration which some might like to look into is what foreigners think of England and the English. In my experience it shows up an interesting difference in perception (of the English) between foreigners and the English but, on the whole (antagonistic people apart), foreigners tend to see the English not unlike an eccentric, old and difficult relative - not that bad but often a bit trying. The particularly English approaches and preferences about a lot of things stand out to foreigners. Among the things I have heard mentioned are distrust of warmth unless it is on a foreign holiday, dislike of change (any change), moaning rather than doing something about it, etc., etc., but perhaps above all the tendency to hide what they really feel/mean. Perhaps these are cultural characteristics but it appears to me notable that most nations see themselves in a different light from that observed by foreigners. Sometimes self flattery is largely at work, sometimes not.
Some good points, NJ.
I do think communication plays a huge role too. As someone else has pointed out, 100 years ago, there were big cultural differences between places as close as Yorkshire and Tyneside, or Manchester and Liverpool.
But mass communication breaks down geographical differences. Which is why you see US culture in places like Kenya or Japan, and why we see Eastern influences here in everything from the food we eat to interior design and fashion. Look at how Bollywood has influenced our music too. New trends can spread globally very very easily, so we pick up on the ones that are the most appealing, rather than the ones that might have originated closest to us.
Some people struggle with this, though.
The other thing to mention - and this may be why jake asks the question - is that people express concern for their culture and heritage but you suspect that's code for something else. Ask them what it is they're worried about losing and they can't even provide a decent answer. Drill deeper and you start to suspect they just don't like seeing so many black or brown faces on the High Street. And I'm not sure we should pander to that kind of small-mindedness.
I do think communication plays a huge role too. As someone else has pointed out, 100 years ago, there were big cultural differences between places as close as Yorkshire and Tyneside, or Manchester and Liverpool.
But mass communication breaks down geographical differences. Which is why you see US culture in places like Kenya or Japan, and why we see Eastern influences here in everything from the food we eat to interior design and fashion. Look at how Bollywood has influenced our music too. New trends can spread globally very very easily, so we pick up on the ones that are the most appealing, rather than the ones that might have originated closest to us.
Some people struggle with this, though.
The other thing to mention - and this may be why jake asks the question - is that people express concern for their culture and heritage but you suspect that's code for something else. Ask them what it is they're worried about losing and they can't even provide a decent answer. Drill deeper and you start to suspect they just don't like seeing so many black or brown faces on the High Street. And I'm not sure we should pander to that kind of small-mindedness.
Jake,
I think it was me you asked the original question of and I would have responded if as you say, the question hadn't disappeared. I can't add much to what has been said above but would like to clarify the point I was originally making.
Firstly I didn't suggest a reason for the erosion of English culture merely bemoaned the fact that whereas other countries and cultures celebrate their culture we as a nation turn our back on ours or deride it. Your comment "surely not warm beer and morris dancers" being a good example.
Secondly don't think I was suggesting English culture should be used to stamp out others. I'm not intending to be jingoistic or racist merely patriotic, there used to be a difference. We live in a multi-cultural community which should be celebrated but that celebration should include English traditions.
Finally I can't clearly define English culture, I have a selection of vague ideas similar to the above but this surely supports my original point. For the record I can't get enough of English real ale and I am a fan of folk music for my sins. I'm sure everyone else won't share my tastes but some things should be experienced and with an open mind.
I think it was me you asked the original question of and I would have responded if as you say, the question hadn't disappeared. I can't add much to what has been said above but would like to clarify the point I was originally making.
Firstly I didn't suggest a reason for the erosion of English culture merely bemoaned the fact that whereas other countries and cultures celebrate their culture we as a nation turn our back on ours or deride it. Your comment "surely not warm beer and morris dancers" being a good example.
Secondly don't think I was suggesting English culture should be used to stamp out others. I'm not intending to be jingoistic or racist merely patriotic, there used to be a difference. We live in a multi-cultural community which should be celebrated but that celebration should include English traditions.
Finally I can't clearly define English culture, I have a selection of vague ideas similar to the above but this surely supports my original point. For the record I can't get enough of English real ale and I am a fan of folk music for my sins. I'm sure everyone else won't share my tastes but some things should be experienced and with an open mind.
In my opinion English Culture should represent freedom for individual expression, tolerance of others and general democratic values. We know that this is not always the case, the British Empire showed that in its treatment of indigeous cultures on the one hand by abusing, pilfering and looting countries and on the other hand by building infrastructures, legal systems etc. How often do you see those iconic empire family pictures especially Indian ones of wealthy Brits and their servants? The British culture has been built on this tolerant, respectful and intellectual way of life from the folding of the napkin to how one drinks their tea, to conducting a 'proper' conversation - mannerisms. Some of it all as a myth, a British Empire myth exporting British culture to the uncivilized?
I'm just highlighting how difficult and wide your query is as Jason does much more succintly. One angle - take family culture. Alot of Eastern cultures may denounce young Brits as having no respect for their parents. It is their culture to respect their parents even in their decision of a marital partner say. Those delinquent ones may be castigated from that community for not complying. The more delinquent there are, the elders will moan that their culture is changing, the youth have no respect and cultural values of parental respect should be installed and upheld. The influence of outsiders is blamed if they live in a foreign country.
Cont....
I'm just highlighting how difficult and wide your query is as Jason does much more succintly. One angle - take family culture. Alot of Eastern cultures may denounce young Brits as having no respect for their parents. It is their culture to respect their parents even in their decision of a marital partner say. Those delinquent ones may be castigated from that community for not complying. The more delinquent there are, the elders will moan that their culture is changing, the youth have no respect and cultural values of parental respect should be installed and upheld. The influence of outsiders is blamed if they live in a foreign country.
Cont....
Couldn't you define culture at least to the way of life.
We all have these ideas to numerous to mention, and we all know that the majority of Britons still stand by them.
However as our society shifts so do these things. Rather than any sort of "foriegn" influx I would say the biggest change to our way of life. Was the liberalism of the Sixties, the smashing of the class system and the emancipation of women.
None of these was essentialy bad but has led to the abandonment of the nuclear family, the stupid litigaton culture, the acceptability of things that were outside the moral compass and the nanny culture that means know one can take a risk.
The rise of the internet means we are now truely global and all peoples are losing thier identity especial secular societies (no I am not having a go at anyone)
The majority of us still as a nation have a sense of fairplay - Respect for peopl and show enormous compassion. Most of these people ar classified as the silent majority they do what needs to be done and move on.
In this day and age never has the saying "empty vessels make the most noise" been more applicable.
We all have these ideas to numerous to mention, and we all know that the majority of Britons still stand by them.
However as our society shifts so do these things. Rather than any sort of "foriegn" influx I would say the biggest change to our way of life. Was the liberalism of the Sixties, the smashing of the class system and the emancipation of women.
None of these was essentialy bad but has led to the abandonment of the nuclear family, the stupid litigaton culture, the acceptability of things that were outside the moral compass and the nanny culture that means know one can take a risk.
The rise of the internet means we are now truely global and all peoples are losing thier identity especial secular societies (no I am not having a go at anyone)
The majority of us still as a nation have a sense of fairplay - Respect for peopl and show enormous compassion. Most of these people ar classified as the silent majority they do what needs to be done and move on.
In this day and age never has the saying "empty vessels make the most noise" been more applicable.
A culture is a set of charateristic behaviours or values that define a group
Therefore it *IS* relevant that other people have the same behaviours and values because it means that those are not distinctive to the first group.
If that's just the case with a couple of points then you can let it slide - but it's not is it?
Many of our cultural characteristics are shared with the Western world.
This is why I contend that there is not an English or British culture that is sufficiently different to be identified as such.
Rev Sermon - you may not have explicitly said that English culture was being eroded by immigration but you said it in the context of a thread about muslims so I find your protests somewhat disingenous.
In any case a lot of people do think it. But the development of the culture that we share in the UK now has owed very little to muslim (or any) immigration
We don't have McKarachi Ha'al bars
We don't flock to see the latest Arabic movies
We don't all download the latest Islamic chart records (do they still call them records)
Even our language is being changed more from the west than the east
Are you not lovin' it?
Therefore it *IS* relevant that other people have the same behaviours and values because it means that those are not distinctive to the first group.
If that's just the case with a couple of points then you can let it slide - but it's not is it?
Many of our cultural characteristics are shared with the Western world.
This is why I contend that there is not an English or British culture that is sufficiently different to be identified as such.
Rev Sermon - you may not have explicitly said that English culture was being eroded by immigration but you said it in the context of a thread about muslims so I find your protests somewhat disingenous.
In any case a lot of people do think it. But the development of the culture that we share in the UK now has owed very little to muslim (or any) immigration
We don't have McKarachi Ha'al bars
We don't flock to see the latest Arabic movies
We don't all download the latest Islamic chart records (do they still call them records)
Even our language is being changed more from the west than the east
Are you not lovin' it?
This attitude we even see in British History even Johnson's time, when one period of time will reflect back to another in which the youth were less corrupted than they are in the present time. But then for example who is to say that the Eastern culture is more positive by adhering to its values? By not changing or adapting as life evolves and adapts whether technological advancements, immigration (which has been mentioned) Integration, brit culture has tried through the 'World image' of its cultural values to adjust to these changes in the World .
However of those Eastern cultures and the example of upholding family culture, can on one hand in these modern times be compared positively when parelled with the extreme Brit sex and binge drinking culture but on the other hand be compared negatively in the unhappiness of those who suffer unhappy marriages, abuse etc all the problems that unhappy marriages can bring but that person has to shoulder as it is their 'cultural burden'?
Don't know if you understand what I'm saying. If you do, then maybe you can explain it to me? There is alot to think about regarding culture in all mediums. An interesting query.
However of those Eastern cultures and the example of upholding family culture, can on one hand in these modern times be compared positively when parelled with the extreme Brit sex and binge drinking culture but on the other hand be compared negatively in the unhappiness of those who suffer unhappy marriages, abuse etc all the problems that unhappy marriages can bring but that person has to shoulder as it is their 'cultural burden'?
Don't know if you understand what I'm saying. If you do, then maybe you can explain it to me? There is alot to think about regarding culture in all mediums. An interesting query.
Jake,
Not really wishing to enter into an argument but I believe I actually said it in a thread relating primarily to the BNP. I believe I said something along the lines "that while being vehemently opposed to them as a group I agreed with some of what they said. Such as views on the erosion of English culture".
My point being that maybe some of the other parties should realise why the BNP gets support from people who are basically reasonable non-racist people and take on board some of these views.
You may not agree with me but I don't believe my comment was disingenious.
Not really wishing to enter into an argument but I believe I actually said it in a thread relating primarily to the BNP. I believe I said something along the lines "that while being vehemently opposed to them as a group I agreed with some of what they said. Such as views on the erosion of English culture".
My point being that maybe some of the other parties should realise why the BNP gets support from people who are basically reasonable non-racist people and take on board some of these views.
You may not agree with me but I don't believe my comment was disingenious.
Jake well said.
This country has always accepted foriegners for many reasons and from the Hugonauts to easter europeans all have added to who we are some for good some for bad.
I have said in other threads we are to influenced by the sound bites of the media when a little research shows that an awful lot of what they say is misconstrued, altered or downright lied about.
Look at your neighbours, your friends the people you meet at work, the pub etc.
most irrespective of creed, colour, religion etc are decent people who want to have a quiet decent life.
There is our way of life our culture.
This country has always accepted foriegners for many reasons and from the Hugonauts to easter europeans all have added to who we are some for good some for bad.
I have said in other threads we are to influenced by the sound bites of the media when a little research shows that an awful lot of what they say is misconstrued, altered or downright lied about.
Look at your neighbours, your friends the people you meet at work, the pub etc.
most irrespective of creed, colour, religion etc are decent people who want to have a quiet decent life.
There is our way of life our culture.
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