You don't believe in god.

[flobadob]

I mean if you sit back and actually think about it, surely you don't really believe in god. Sit back now, think about god. Think. Think a little more about him. Now tell me, do you actually think he is there? Honestly.

[flobadob]

keyplus when you say

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

to me that same set of points could be applied to the universe. Do you think that we should look at God in the same way we view the universe?

1. It is the only universe we know of
2. It is everywhere
3. No one knows really from whenst it came
4. Same as number 1

Perhaps there is a direct correlation between our views of Gods and the facts of the universe. Could they be one in the same?

[sophie_1003]

I haven't read through all the posts but could you not apply the 'really think about it' technique to anything you believe in and end up not believeing anything?

[flobadob]

Don't know sophie, perhaps. Why don't you try it? But you could end up getting schizophrenia.

[keyplus90]

Jomifl – Why don’t we leave all of the arguments aside and you give me your logic about believing that God does not exist?

Flobadob – I am afraid here I do not agree with you. It might be the only Universe we know, but we are not sure, are we? Then Universe is not one thing is it? It is name given to countless things. Then again might be everywhere but Universe is expanding and science agree with that. In other means it is changing and anything that changes usually have an end to it. Whereas God (cording to the verses I gave) is Eternal. Again for Universe there are theories (few Nobel prize winning) that where it started from. Big Bang theory is one of them. And this Big Bang theory again has been mentioned in Quran in very much detail 1400 years ago. So I do not think Universe as God but I do not have accepting it as creation of God.

[venator]

Oh yes I AM...

[keyplus90]

I really meant " I do not have objection in Accepting it as one of the creations of God".

[venator]

One thing I notice about nearly all gods is that they employ earthly representatives who don't work for a living, and many of their organisations seem to have loads of dosh....

[jomifl]

Hi Key plus..Try these for starters…any one is enough for me.

1. Assuming that a creator (god) exists supposes that he exists in the universe as we know it otherwise we would not be aware of his existence. If he exists within the universe then he is part of the universe and therefore could not have created it, as he must have appeared simultaneously or later. If he exists outside the universe then he can not exist in our universe. Therefore he does not exist.

2. Nothing exists that requires a creator to explain it’s existence.

3. If a creator is required to explain the existence of the universe then how is the creator explained?

4. There is no physical evidence of the existence of a creator. If something cannot be detected then it doesn’t (in practical terms) exist.

[WaldoMcFroog]

"And this Big Bang theory again has been mentioned in Quran in very much detail 1400 years ago. So I do not think Universe as God but I do not have accepting it as creation of God."

Please provide reference to support this contention, Skyplus.

I am anticpating that these references will be sufficiently vague that they could be bent to fit practically any model of how the universe came into being, but perhaps I'm wrong.

[keyplus90]

Jomifl – Lets suppose these as well,
1. ////Assuming that a creator (god) exists supposes that he exists in the universe as we know it////

So he exists in the universe as “WE” know it, that tells me a lot. How much do we know about our universe? Do we know all about our own planet let alone the universe?

////otherwise we would not be aware of his existence.////

I have never been to Australia but I do know that it exists because someone told me about that.

/// If he exists within the universe then he is part of the universe and therefore could not have created it////

Refer to my first response above.

2. ////Nothing exists that requires a creator to explain it’s existence////.

I bought a DVD player created (or manufactured) by a human. That DVD player did not tell me how it would work but a manual that came with that written by the creator (or manufacturer). So its not the creation that is telling us about itself but the creator. So your analogy is wrong.

3. ///If a creator is required to explain the existence of the universe then how is the creator explained?////

Get back to the DVD player again. If manual does not sort your problem then you phone a dedicated line. On other side of that line someone who either created the DVD player or someone who knows that how it was created is sitting and knows how it should work. His/her presence there confirms his/her existence. But in case of God you would know him after a specific time, so right now you may keep believing that he does not exist but that is your own misconception and no way is proof of his nonexistence.

4. ////There is no physical evidence of the existence of a creator. If something cannot be detected then it doesn’t (in practical terms) exist.////

If I could see you then I would ask you to touch two cables one plugged in (wi

[keyplus90]

cont

If I could see you then I would ask you to touch two cables one plugged in (with live 240V) and one unplugged. I hope using your given five senses you would only touch the one not live. Otherwise everyone else would know what you touched. And for them that would be enough physical evidence.

[keyplus90]

Waldo – My old friend, long time no see. I hope you are OK, Here is the verse from Quran and it is very clear and no one has to fit it where it suits. My language is not Arabic but still I can understand what it means without any help from anyone. There are more verses but I do not want to confuse you and therefore only one would be enough.

Quran 21:30. Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

[jomifl]

Hi Keyplus..Would it be possible for you to re-phrase your arguments in a slightly less colourful and more abstract way, possibly without the DVD player and the imagined electrocution?

[keyplus90]

I just painted my response with your given colours.

Ok, The least colourful way of rephrasing it is that your argument is only based upon a very old and well known reasoning. If we can’t comprehend with our hands, eyes, nose, ears, or tongue then something does not exist. But unfortunately you can’t call it logical as you claimed earlier.

[jomifl]

Hi Keyplus..
1.How would you logically explain that my arguments are not logical?
2.An old argument is not necessarily an obsolete argument.and you haven't refuted it yet
3.When did I use a DVD player, an instruction manual and an electrical power cable in my argument.
4. If figments of imagination are as real as concrete objects by your reasoning why don't you invent your own god so that you would not have to worship an old one?
It would be impossible for anyone to prove that it didn't exist as absence is supposedly no proof of non-existence

[flobadob]

keyplus, when I say in the original post to sit back and really think, then I feel it is hard to then believe in a God. That is in my opinion and I feel it is valid, and also I feel that most people have not truly ever done this. You have argued this and put forward some of your thoughts and that is cool. However I feel that really all of your arguments always boil down to one simple fact and that is that the reason we must believe is just because. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on the matter, but still engage at other times on the very same topic.

[mike11111]

Would just like to point out that midnight tonight marks the start of Holy Week. For the faithful it marks a time of deep reflection; for unbelievers it is yet another chance to pour scorn. It has just struck me that whichever side of the fence you sit upon it makes no difference to what you conceive to be true.

[RATTER15]

It all just amazes me that people think these Gods are so great, yet they all want so many people dead!! If you don't believe in any of these Gods you should be killed!!

I really can live without all that stupid nonsense!!

[keyplus90]

Thats fine Flobadob. And honestly on the other hand I never expect anyone to agree with anyone else on this website. I have yet to see that. But then againg that is what life is about. People agree on few things and disagree on many. As human we all have that right.

And my above paragraph goes to Jomifl as well. As according to him I have not refuted his argument. And once again I have never seen any one accepting that either. But lets carry on, if not here then somewhere else, after all we do have spare time to put our thoughts in.

[CJ242]

If a God would praise killing in their name then surely they do not deserve worship!

If a God sent their son and let him die to help humanity but then abandoned them for the next 2000 years when the world has turned to crap surely they don't deserve worship!