Can the christian (or muslim for that matter) doctrine of hell

[kryptic]

ever be justified?
I have a friend who started to attend a pentecostal church a couple of years ago. Some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth is frankly alarming.
We got talking the other day about the afterlife (which I dont believe in) and he seems to think that it is perfectly justifiable that I will spend my eternity in hell because I dont believe in God. (at least not in the religious sense). I have lost a fair few loved ones over the years, all good people but not religious, and he seems to think that its justified in some way to believe that these folk are burning in a fiery lake. If it wasnt for the fact that I believe he has been brainwashed (and the fact that we have been friends a long time) I might be tempted to clock him one when he comes out with stuff like this.
Any thoughts on hell or on how to deal with this kind of indoctrination?

[mike11111]

My dilemma as a music lover and a sex maniac is, "Do I go for singing in the heavenly choir or have a crack at the 72 virgins?"

[Cowtipper]

I asked a very devout Muslim friend of mine about the virgins. Like "who's sister are they?" and "do you get fresh virgins every day?" and "do they stay virgins for eternity?". He didn't have an answer for me. He was a very nice kid and believed with his whole heart. I loaned him Diablo 2 for his pc. A few days later he handed it back and told me it was too scary to play. Too many Djin.

[ladyalex]

I've always wondered about the virgins too...presumably they are there because they've been bad and are in hell....after all, woudln't you be better off with a bad girl than a good one ? Just a personal view...

[Cowtipper]

Have you ever had a virgin? Its awful. I'm an emotionally sensitive guy and I don't like hurting women. Then you can't get rid of them.

[Cowtipper]

I doubt God is controlling millions. We have free choice after all. More than likely its man controlling millions using what tools are available. I don't have all the answers for you. I've read the Bible a few times. Not all of it makes sense to me. I never made it very far into the Koran. The Muslims tell me Christians have their sight blinded to it. I have absolutely no training in Judaism. I was part Jew but they snipped that bit off.
My very limited understanding is that over time our relationship with God has changed due to man. Adam getting tossed out of the garden and cursed. Noah and the flood.

"I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. " Is the agreement with the people that followed Moses into the desert. After they broke it God tries again.

"It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord."

"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."
Some people say the eternal inheritance is heaven, but I don't believe that way. My perspective as its my personal relationship that counts and not some church leader telling me.

Things change over time. Like I said I'm no expert at this. This is an academic exercise for me. I don't expect you to repent for my efforts at witnessing. I don't expect to "win" any subjective argument. If you're really insistent on hearing these things why take a man's word for it? There are four types of people that hea

[Cowtipper]

word for it? There are four types of people that hear the message. I'll shake my sandals before I try to "convert" anyone.

[samak]

I thought God knew everything and was timeless. Therefore he must have known that the first covenant would be broken. So why bother with it?
Makes no sense to me.

[Cowtipper]

Quote your source.

[keyplus90]

Birdie – To answer your first post 23.06 on 27th, where you spoke about what Egyptians did, worshiped dogs etc. I am giving you few verses from OT and NT. Please let me know if Christians & Jews are acting upon these. Perhaps Egyptians were doing the same. They were told to do one thing but they did something else.

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
[The Bible, Mark 12:29]

"I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]

Old Testament condemns idol worship in the following verses:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]

Exodus 3.5 - And he said, Draw not near here: put off your shoes from off your feet, for the place where on you stand is holy ground.

Genesis 17:3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,

Mathew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed,…………….
Pork is prohibited
Leviticus 11:7-8
Deuteronomy 14:8
Isaiah 65:2-5

[keyplus90]

Birdie- To answer your second post at 23.07 on 27th,

///If these people didn't go to Hell are you saying that they went to Heaven? If so, is this the same Heaven that is talked about in the Koran? Or is there more than one Heaven?///

Yes they did go to the same Heaven and it is same Heaven as in Quran.

Ixion - ////I wonder what area God covers.....is it just planet Earth or the entire Universe?////

To answer that It will give you very beginning of Quran’s first Chapter,

Quran 1.1 Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

[jomifl]

So stars are off limits to god then?

[keyplus90]

Birdie – As usual you only want to accept an answer as an answer if it is what you want to hear. You are saying one thing and then as usual answering that yourself and putting words in my mouth. But I believe we are on this question now for long time. So lets carry on.

I very clearly said that Muslims believe that all of the messengers from Adam to Muhammad gave the same message. And “IF” people followed those teachings then they would go to Heaven.

Now that was said in very plain English and you have twisted (as usual) into something like this,

////as I stated in an earlier post – if you can get to Heaven without following the religious 'rules' then what's the point of organised religion?////

Now let me waste a bit more time on why we believe that Islam existed even before Muhammad. Easiest bit should have been what I mentioned earlier but you could not understand. Why Islam made it compulsory to believe in all prophets before Muhammad (125K messenger all together) if they were teaching something different from what Muhammad taught?

Muslim means one who submits his will to God, that has been mentioned many times in Quran but of course Christians and Jews will not accept Quranic reference so here is what is in Bible,

John 5:30 (New International Version, ©2011)

30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

[keyplus90]

The only SIMPLE thing again I can say about ALL THOSE who according to you were worshipping ALL BUT ONE GOD. They must have been after Adam (pbuh) as he was the first human or earth. So they must have had a messenger. But the only difference is that they must have gone astray from original teachings. And to prove that I gave you all ref from Bible and asked you to see if Christians and Jews are acting upon BIBLE. And I said that perhaps Egyptians etc were doing the same thing.
For anyone who is willing to read what is there in front of the eyes, my posts were very clear but for someone who has already made up and shut up his/her mind, of course I have never and will never answer anything. Because they will never accept it.

[keyplus90]

No Keyplus is not always this silent but keyplus is not an old age pensioner or someone on dole either. However If that is difficult to understand then in simple words keyplus do have other things to do too.

I have given answers to your other questions its you who did not answer my question. But then again I know it is atheists very well-known trick or propaganda that just keep on saying that we have not received an answer, blah blah and more blah. Usually the reason is very simple. They only hear what they want to hear and rest is not there. And here is another example,

birdie1971
////The thing with Keyplus is that he is has a real problem with reality and logic. Unlike any other person whom I have debated with about religion, he seems either unwilling or incapable of following an argument to a logical conclusion.////

Once you have read that then proceed to this one,

////When presented with a logical inconsistency with his arguments he usually resorts to accusing the other party or parties of failing to understand the very question being debated. It's quite silly and quite predictable.////
And you know why my friend birdie believes so? Because even after going past 100 or more posts on so many occasions with birdie and CO, they still insist that I do not give them LOGICAL answers. So in other words answer has been given (that proves their “No answer given” propaganda wrong) but it is not logical only because it is not what they agree with.

ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER IS WHERE YOU AGREE WITH WHAT THEY SAY. SEEEEEMPLE