Afterlife

[oldnitro]

Does anyone think that it could be possible there might be an afterlife that has nothing to do with God or religion? because it has always seemed to me that if there is nothing then it has all been a waste of time. And as for the idea of judgement day, heaven and hell, that was drummed into me at primary school, I quit believing that fairy tale at a very early age, but I would just like to believe there is something so that life was n`t all for nothing.

[flobadob]

naomi, when it comes to thoughts and feelings, what is the truth? If something happens in front of a goup people each one sees something different, you will get different descriptions of what happened. Not all of these can be the truth, yet they were all accounts of the same occurrence. It may affect some more than others, or some, not at all.

Anyway, all I meant is that if someone believes something and it keeps them happy then that trust can make it real to them. It only has to be real to them anyway, for it to matter.

[Khandro]

If you are talking about the 'ego'; your own personal individuality', then I believe that goes with you when you die, never to be returned, but people 'live on' in other beings, call it a life-force, spirit or what you will.
Example;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZunv2b3GYk

[naomi24]

Flob, you've answered your own question.

//If something happens in front of a goup people each one sees something different, you will get different descriptions of what happened. Not all of these can be the truth, yet they were all accounts of the same occurrence. //

Therefore, however much each believes his account to be the right one, they can't possibly all be true.

I know what you meant. :o)

[keyplus90]

So many people say that because there is no afterlife so we should live our life to the full and enjoy it. I believe that there is afterlife and I am still enjoying my life. However if you really believe that there is no objective of this life apart from just living and enjoying yourself then what about a child that die soon after he was born? He/she did not enjoy anything and (if) there is not afterlife either then what would you say to that child or what would you say about his/her enjoyment that never took place?

[Ankou]

good point keyplus, because in christian terms that child would be destined for nothing more than .... nothingness anyway (original sin an all that) so a bit pointless having a heaven it can't get to.

in islam you have the get out of jail free card (the fitrah). do young boys get the 70 virgins as well ? and what of the young girls ? allah just marries them off to an adult male believer already in paradise ?

hmmm

[mibn2cweus]

Survivors guilt keyplus . . . or a last ditch effort to scrape out yet one more layer from the bottom of the 'excuses for religion' barrel?

[naomi24]

Keyplus, If a child dies, I question religion's claim of the existence of a supposedly loving and compassionate god.

[naomi24]

Khandro, so if the spirit does not incorporate (for want of a better word) the personality, what do you think it consists of?

[Khandro]

Naomi, If you ever meet someone who is TRULY great, and I have been privileged to do so more than once in my life, you can be left feeling enormously enhanced, not necessarily because of anything they have said or done, but just by the contact, and it is usual that they have in their turn been in contact with other great people at an earlier time. It is, I believe, like a powerful life force, I could use the analogy of a flame being passed from a dieing candle to new one. A great teacher passes on more than information; Socrates taught Plato, Plato taught Aristotle, all different, but carrying on with a force of creativity. similarly as Haydn to Mozart to Beethoven, the former flame burning on in the latter.

[jake-the-peg]

All very poetic Khandro

Flame passed from one to another.

But a flame is burning gas - when it runs out of something to burn - it goes out.

The Human brain is incredibly easy to fool - we will sit infront of a TV and our brains will be convinced that they see depth and movement and people - not just flickering lights.

People hear voices and are convinced they are real - I'm sure every bit as strong as the feeling that you experienced.

So we are left with 3 possibilities.

- Every psychotic's experience is true.

- You personally are somehow special and can distinguish reality

- Despite the strength of your experience it might be false

I know where my money's going

[keyplus90]

Ankou – Concept of heaven in Islam is not all about virgins (70 or as many). Before 9/11 people in the west never talked this much about this aspect and now word Islam or Muslim can’t be used without a reference to 70 virgins and that is what media have done to people’s thinking. For me personally being able to see my creator would be more important than 70 virgins and as far as I know majority of the Muslims believe same way however any Muslims who are found by the western media put more emphasis on 70 virgins for whatever reason. But I would expect a proper logical answer to my point from someone like you.

Coming back to the question, then Islam believes that children go to heaven and that makes more sense as they did not “enjoy” themselves in this life. According to one Hadith Allah even forgives any sins of the parents who lose a child as this emotionally is a very big loss (test) anyone would be put into.

Naomi – your words are 100% what I expected from you. Sometimes I do believe that I should become a fortune teller because I can always predict when it comes to what you would post.

[Khandro]

'The words of Mercury are harsh after the songs of Apollo. You that way; we this way.'

[seadogg]

I believe the great GBS was motivated by his belief in the "Life Force" and that is possibly why some of his plays have the charismatic power as actually meeting a great person would have. I am at one with you on this Khandro.

[Khandro]

ps. my last post was to dear Jake, and I should have added-- :-)

[jake-the-peg]

Reality is often harsh ;c)

[naomi24]

Khandro, that doesn't answer the question which was what does the spirit consist of? And ok, you've met great people who have left you enormously enhanced - but what about the spirits of the rest - the ordinary people?

Actually, your answer concerns me somewhat. I get the impression these great people you're talking about are charismatic - and that rings alarm bells with me because the gullible are so very easily influenced by charisma. Please understand that's not to say I think you are gullible, but television evangelists, mad mullahs, and names like David Koresh spring to mind.

Keyplus, //Naomi – your words are 100% what I expected from you. Sometimes I do believe that I should become a fortune teller because I can always predict when it comes to what you would post. //

If you really knew what I was going to say, you'd think before entering into arguments here because, as you are well aware, your religion never stands up to rational scrutiny.

Incidentally, Keyplus, bearing in mind their grief is the direct result of your god's test, and hence, entirely his fault, forgiving the sins of bereaved parents is the very least he can do. It's a sick, cruel, sadistic mind that sets such appalling tests when it already knows the outcome.

[Khandro]

Naomi, I know you would like nice clear answers but I'm sorry I can't oblige, I cannot say what exactly the 'spirit' is, but I don't believe that negates its existence. Also, a great human being does not necessarily mean a famous one, I only used a few names that you would know of, there's little point in mentioning my Grandmother, who few would know, but she was non the less a great person.

[rowanwitch]

Sometimes you meet people who have something different about them not famous or especially gifted... I suspect they just have a higher degree of emotional intelligence or none at all but they are the people who make you feel good, or very scared.... I suspect in older times they would be classed as 'old souls' I am not sure about afterlife if there is I suspect it is simply a spark of energy just goes back into the world a heaven would be nice though... but I don't need it to exist

[Ankou]

keyplus, perhaps i should have said houri.

as to your statement "before 9/11 people in the west never talked this much about this aspect". this is probably true in a global sense. however, in august of that year a hamas activist - muhammad abu wardeh, who recruited terrorists for suicide bombings in israel was quoted as saying:

"i described to him how god would compensate the martyr for sacrificing his life for his land. if you become a martyr, god will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness."

in fact he was also wrong because its actually 72. maybe he was keeping a couple to himself. dirty git.

[naomi24]

Khandro, //I cannot say what exactly the 'spirit' is//

I know you can't - but do you have any thoughts on what it might be?

I know too that the 'great' aren't necessarily famous, but I've posted examples of charismatic people who are easily able to influence others - and not for good. I expect their followers think they're 'great' though.