The Universe

[naomi24]

I watched last night's Stargazing Live (BBC2), and as always when I see programmes of this sort, the content, and the photography in particular, left me awestruck. How can anyone possibly believe that all of this vast magnificence is the handiwork of a petty-minded, vindictive, narcissistic God like Yahweh, whom in one instance, the bible tells us, was incapable of defeating chariots of iron? Additionally, is something that is capable of creating such enormously beautiful and powerful splendour really so personally insecure that it needs the inhabitants of one speck of dust among all that wonder to constantly reassure it? Is it really concerned with our pathetic differences of opinion - or our sex lives for that matter? Instead of spending much of their time with closed eyes and bowed heads, or lying flat on their faces in wretched submission to nothing, perhaps it would serve humanity better if people of religion abandoned their selfish concerns for the eventual fate of their own sorry souls, and opened their eyes to look upwards - and to use their precious intellect to think about what's really there.

[ladybirder]

I watched it tonight naomi and thought it was wonderful, it took my breath away. And I agree with your point, the one is not compatible with the other.

[naomi24]

Pixi, allow me to quote you in full.

//I for one wouldnt give you the time of day discussing religion if you have that attitude.....//

I don't doubt that. My loss I'm sure. ;o)

Ladybirder, you're right. It isn't compatible.

[sandyRoe]

Isn't religion really about helping people endure the travail that is life and empowering them to face the bleak reality that dust we are and unto dust we shall return?
Nonsensical ideas about out-dated dietary restrictions and sexual aberrations should have no place in it.
Any programme about the cosmos only serves to remind us how petty and insignificent we really are.

[naomi24]

Sandy, tell that to the religious. The rest already know it.

[mibn2cweus]

//is that your own personal av mibs or a ab enforced one?//

I recently went invisible (my choice) in protest of the avatar tinkering that was in vogue recently. The grab bag (currently resurrected for reference purposes) was anonymously donated and retained (seemed suitable enough) ;o)
until replaced (again by the avatar gremlin/s) with the Gravatar logo http://www.gravatar.com/ which I subsequently turned on its head and kept ever since (except for the moment) having become rather fond, I suppose, of the implications.

[sith123]

than youre saying it happened by accident naomi? that makes even worse sense

[ludwig]

Not by accident Sith. Accident implies someone was trying to do something else and it went wrong. Maybe it just happened.

[Ankou]

i missed the point ?

if god believers look into the night sky and see all that beauty and think 'it was god what did it' then thats their look out innit.

or are you suggesting some form of mind control to make them think what you want them to think?

[naomi24]

Sith, why do you think the supernatural makes more sense than the natural? You don't know if the supernatural exists so how can it make more sense?

For all anyone knows a God might have created the universe but for the reasons I've given it makes no sense to believe it was your God whose nature encompasses the very worst characteristics of humanity rendering him small-minded, narcissistic, and hateful. It surely would have to have been something much bigger and much more intelligent than that. As Ladybirder said, the two are not compatible.

Ankou, I don't understand your last sentence, but never mind. You're still missing the point. See my last paragraph to Sith.

[Ankou]

in your question you said:

"....it would serve humanity better if people of religion abandoned their selfish concerns for the eventual fate of their own sorry souls, and opened their eyes to look upwards - and to use their precious intellect to think about what's really there."

and then

"It surely would have to have been something much bigger and much more intelligent than that."

so if they look up and see the 'heavens' and think it is all gods work whats it to you? they think their god is brilliant and omnipotent and it took him less than a day to create all that 'heaven'. and they do so willingly in denial of many demomstrable facts.

so what is 'your' point? just another angle of exasperation at their belief system?

[naomi24]

Exasperation is a good word.

[Davethedog]

It has just occurred to me why? If there was a god and we are chosen etc, etc Why all the rest of it, galaxys, millions (bilions?) of stars, infinite space and all of it why?

If theres just us he could of put us in a box under his telly and take us out whenever he fancied killing a few thousand.

[ludwig]

We probably are in a box under his telly. It's just a big box.

[mibn2cweus]

The underlying beauty of God's creation, to the extent one comes to an understanding of and appreciation for the means and process by which He did it, is in how marvellously He managed to make it all appear to be the inevitable consequence of natural processes requiring no intelligent intervention whatsoever. Once one becomes aware of the conspicuous lack of need for and evidence of His participation, it's as though . . . He never existed at all.

The only thing more miraculous than God's creation of the universe is the devil's creation of a comprehensible reality making those who subscribe to the existence of either the unwitting stooges of the perpetrators of . . . the ultimate con job.

[naomi24]

Dave, many people will tell you that the god of Abraham created the stars as lights and as indicators of time and changing seasons - and he made them all especially for human beings. I've often wondered why he made so many that are invisible to the naked eye.

[jomifl]

Naomi, how do you think aliens tell the time?

[naomi24]

I've thought about that too, Jom, and the possibility that Jesus, the prophets, and Mohammed have done the rounds of inhabited planets spreading the word - and in Jesus' case, being killed repeatedly for the cause - but when people think they're pretty unique as universes go, the idea doesn't go down too well. :o)

[Davethedog]

Ludwig I have often thought that we are an electron in a atom, if one considers the structure of the solar system. We may not be in a box we may be the box, or a chair, statue of liberty or "god" forbid a goal post at Hampden Park :-)

[jomifl]

Dave, are you trying to say that god 'doesn't play dice' but does play rugby?

[sith123]

ludwig, something just happening doesnt make musch sence. almost everything is created in some way. if there was nothing here before the universe than how could something have caused it. and if it did happen "by itself" why?