Do you need moral guidance?

[naomi24]

http://www.channel4.c...thoughttv/4od#3314326

I found the implications of this video rather disturbing. This man appears to be saying that he adheres to an acceptable moral code only because he fears the negative consequences of his actions - as taught by Islam - in the next life. He then talks about children needing moral guidance, but still he relies upon an outside source – Islam and the Koran - to provide it. Surely, as an adult, he knows right from wrong, and should be capable of living a decent lifestyle, and of teaching his children to do the same without abnegating his responsibility and without this feeble dependency?

[jno]

nobody gets their moral code from nowhere at all; it comes from parental guidance, from teachers, peers, mass media, everywhere. James I did try an experiment involving letting a couple of kids grow up in total isolation (you can do that sort of thing if you're a king) but I don't know how it turned out. My guess would be that without language and without instruction they didn't develop anything we'd call a moral code at all.

[Davethedog]

Oh dear, Oh dear feeling argumentative today :-)

[wolf63]

I have enough problems getting through each day - thoughts of the next or after life are just too much to worry about.

:-)

[woofgang]

jno I think he ended up with two feral children IIRC. yes i think all children need moral guidance and structure as do adults, except the hopefully the adults don't need to refer to it as often as the mores are ingrained. As someone who believes in god though I don't think that behaviour should be based on fears about what an afterlife would hold but on a commitment to make this life as good and loving and caring as possible.

[jomifl]

If you live in isolation, I doubt that you need a moral code.

[woofgang]

lol Dave, I think naomi gets bored....

[ummmm]

No.

I was brought up Catholic by a man who wasn't really practising (did I spell that right?) My Mum didn't 'ask Jesus into her life' until I was in my teens. I had all my morals installed by then. My Mum and Dad are good people, I learnt from them.

Fingers crossed, my boys are as loving and caring as my Dad was.

I know I knock my Mum now and then, but she was a brilliant Mother. Manners, respect, love, will get you through life.

[RATTER15]

Very disturbing! What I find is a little bit sad is that the guy in the video, he seems a nice enough guy, would probably have far better moral standards if he burned his Koran and used his own judgement as to what is right and what is wrong, be good, be nice purely because it is the right thing to do not through fear of what may happen to him in the next life.

[jake-the-peg]

I think that's a bit of an assumption JNO

I guess most of us get our detailed moral guidance from others but there's something more subtle than that.

Most people refer back to the "golden principle" of "do as you would be done to" - fundamentally this comes from empathy with others.

The degree to which people feel this empathy varies - it especial seems to vary depending on how like them they are.

Some people have no problem feeling empathy with someone who comes from a background like theirs with the same social expriences but can't empathise with say an arabic moslem man (to pick an example at random).

This notion of the necessity for religious fear instilling goodness is certainly not confined to Islam - Christianity is a real "end of the world" cult and a lot of Christians truely believe that the world would slip into the moral abyss without the threat of eternal damnation.

[woofgang]

indeed jake, but that kind of moral attitude is instilled as well in the same way, by the same people and experiences that jno mentions.

[Old_Geezer]

Empathy is a great thing. If we all have it we all benefit. But if you are the only one who doesn't then you benefit most. Logically that is the best option for you. But for the species it would be less fit for the environment. That is probably why evolution has given most of us this disadvantage.

But how do we catch empathy in the first place ? Are we born with it, or is it taught ? In my limited experience the younger the child the more they are concerned with themselves and their own desires, not with others. Perhaps the sensible thing is for the religious to teach this empaphy to their offspring in the hope of future reward whilst the rest sneer and take advantage of them ? (Except where they need a small gang of friends that is.)

[sandyRoe]

I like to think that people are more than the sum of their appetites. Having said that, without either moral guidance, or the fear of the laws dreadful consequences, what sort of a world would we inhabit.

[naomi24]

Woofgang, //I think naomi gets bored....//

I've read some of your deliberations about me in the past - and I have to say, you do appear to have rather an over-active imagination. ;o)

[woofgang]

OG that's not entirely the case. Have you ever seen the cheats suckers and grudgers scenario? i will try and find it, it seems to show that do as you would be done by is the most evolutionarily successful strategy.

its here
http://books.google.c...and%20suckers&f=false

Dawkins again

[Old_Geezer]

I'll look at the link, but evolution is for species not individuals; they can have different "best" strategies.

[Old_Geezer]

Also a sensible self interest strategist would avoid letting others know that was their plan. If pulled off successfully then a lot of the, "I'm not helping you any more", stuff doesn't come in to it.

[ludwig]

I wonder what people did for moral guidance before the koran was written?

Similarly the bible. Presumably before people got the instruction 'thou shalt not kill', everyone was happily killing each other, unaware of the fact that it wasn't a nice thing to do.

[andy-hughes]

This is interesting.

The gentleman concerned did point out - and lord knows with media scaremongering and nasty racist gossip about isam, it's needed - that isalm prevents physical reaction against anyone offending its creed.

Anyone with a faith will point to its moral guidance and coded, and any adult with a faith will attempt to instill that faith into his or her children.

The concept of dependency on faith depends on the individual, and their level of adhearnce, and here, Islam and Christianity part ways considerably.

For all but the most devout Christians, faith is a 'bold on' aspect of life, there in the background but rarely a major factor in daily living and decision making. For Islamists, is is the eaxct opposite, their life is built into their faith and it onfirms everything all the time.

As an atheist, my moral code is my own, and I have passed it on to my children. It is encapsulated in two simple words which inform my daily life and routine - Be nice.

[keyplus90]

I believe he put it very nicely. There has to be a power above us individuals who decide what is wrong and what is right. Who gives us boundaries, do’s and dont’s otherwise every human would have their own standards. Few would even like to marry and have children with their brothers and sisters like that couple in Germany. After all they believe it is right and as two adults they should have a right to chose. In very simple words, when you cross the boundary then there is no limit how far you would go.

Andy – You pointed out the difference between Islam and Christianity but I would give you another difference. According to Christianity all you have to do is believe that Jesus (pbuh) is the saviour and you will go through. Where in Islam You have to believe and do good deeds to go through. Quran is full of the verses about that.

[naomi24]

My point was that it appears the only reason he adheres to a decent moral code is because he believes he will be punished in the afterlife if he doesn’t – and he suggests that to keep children on the straight and narrow, they should be taught similarly. That doesn’t seem to be much of a moral code at all to me. Surely decent people live a decent life because they are decent people – not because they are afraid of the punishment they might receive if they don’t.