Heathens missing out?

[Khandro]

As historically, so much great art is predicated on a strong feeling for God, do heathens feel at a loss not to be able to fully encompass some of humankind's greatest creations?

[jomifl]

Don't worry joko, Khandro will understand it all for us.

[modeller]

khandro #All these you may understand and like, but my friends, that ain't the whole enchilada. #

As I understand you all those works of art are felt at a much deeper emotional level if you are drugged with a religious belief. I can believe that but does that make that drug valid.
It is possible to live in a drug induced fantasy world which may be what you want but it is still a fantasy .

[atalanta]

When I look at a great work of art created by a religious artist, be it music, painting, sculpture, - I feel tremendous pity for that creator-artist, that (he, usually) he was so limited by religion, religious sponsors and a religious outlook, that he never managed to see the whole picture, and produce art of greater universal relevance than just ( usually ) Christian-inspired, Bible-inspired art. Just imagine what music Bach might have produced if he had not been limited to the religious demands of his religious patrons !

[jomifl]

atalanta ^ :-)

[Khandro]

plowter; Either see my earlier post,20:00 Sat. or look it up in your dictionary (if you have one).
joko;Perhaps you should stay with your paintings of planes and cars.
atalanta: I'm sure your pity is much appreciated.

[naomi24]

Khandro, you've answered other people but not me. Perhaps you missed my question so I'll repeat it.

Just out of interest, you say you're a Buddhist, so why are you so intent on defending the God of Abraham?

[Khandro]

naomi; analogous to what I am saying, I am dismayed at the proliferation of cheap, poor-quality Buddhas, which are proliferating everywhere. They are made out of plastic and concrete, and cast from very badly modelled modern originals. They are sold in cheap shops and garden centres, and people buy them to festoon around their gardens and houses not knowing what they are other than they are 'Buddhas'. Ask if they would be prepared to do likewise with models of Christ on the cross, you can guess the answer.
Within Buddhism, images of the Buddha must never be used for decorative purposes, they are imbued with a meaning beyond mere appearance, this also applies to art of other religions, including of course, Christianity.

[jomifl]

Naomi, Khandro finds all religion appealing because it is based on woolly thinking and doesn't require intellectual discipline. Additionally within religion it is not necessary to explain or justify irrational statements and delusions of omniscience.

[naomi24]

Khandro, that doesn’t answer the question.

[Khandro]

jomifl; What you see as you cavalier banter you do not realise has implications, have I ever in any of the posts I have made on all the many threads insulted you personally in such a manner?
naomi; your question was //just out of interest, you say you're a Buddhist, so why are you so intent on defending the God of Abraham?//
In my last post, and in relation to this topic, I attempted to do this, if you cannot follow the connection, try to reconsider what I say, if not, I am at a loss to do better.

[naomi24]

Khandro, I'm usually pretty good at solving puzzles and conundrums, but I have to say you've got me with this one. You are aggrieved at the sale of statues of Buddha, but since you say // Ask if they would be prepared to do likewise with models of Christ on the cross, you can guess the answer.//. you clearly have nothing to defend in that area, so your response appears to have no connection to my question whatsoever. Would you mind trying again without statues and in plain English?

[jake-the-peg]

Khandro - you've used some rather obtuse words here

What do you mean by encompass? appreciate?

I'm not sure that you need to be religious to appreciate the art of religion?

I think that some of mankinds greatest achievements include things like Einstein's theories of special and General relativity, quantum mechanics, the standard model.

These things represent the pinacle of our intellectual achievements - I think far more people miss out from the fact that they don't appreciate these things wouldn't you say?

[ludwig]

// I am dismayed at the proliferation of cheap, poor-quality Buddhas, which are proliferating everywhere //

I've seen low quality imitation ones in my local Morrisons. They're called 'I can't believe it's not Buddha'.

[joko]

"joko;Perhaps you should stay with your paintings of planes and cars"

That it? Thats your response? Thats the best you could do? Wahaha... oh dear, bit desperate and feeble isnt it?

I mean why not address the point made? Rather than childishly sneer about an irrelevant aspect of it...?
That one does not need to be emotionally, spiritually or physicallly linked to the subject of an artwork in order to truly appreciate it...

the real answer is that you can't....

[naomi24]

//I've seen low quality imitation ones in my local Morrisons. They're called 'I can't believe it's not Buddha'.//

Haaa! Twit. :o)

[Khandro]

jake; Welcome, I'm not talking science here and you are right, perhaps I should have said 'artistic' creations, thought I did say 'some' of the greatest not 'all'. What I'm saying is quite simple I believe, and if you don't see it I shall give up, please see last part of my post 16:12 Sunday.
The large monolithic 'sculptures' (our classification) on Easter Island are beyond our comprehension; we do not know what they mean, nor will we ever know as the civilisation has gone without leaving any record. So all we can do is admire them for what they seem to us to be, and marvel at the ingenuity of making, transporting and erecting them, but that is not what they were about, of that we can be certain. Only the people of that culture and sensibility could know and feel what they really were.
Similarly, in Bombay there is a Museum, initiated by the Victorians - Indians don't normally DO museums- which is full of sculptures of deities from the Hindu pantheon. Much to the infuriation of the curators (and my amusement) people keep placing offerings of rice and flowers in front of these deities and adding red pigment to their foreheads, because they have a deep spiritual meaning to them on a personal level and as such they are not simply beautifully executed carved objects, - their understanding and feeling for them being truer than that of the curators.
This I believe holds true for any religious work of art, the heathen can be ecstatic in admiration, can even be extremely knowledgeable about its production and iconography, but can never really grasp (encompass) it fully to his or her heart.

[naomi24]

//the heathen can be ecstatic in admiration, can even be extremely knowledgeable about its production and iconography, but can never really grasp (encompass) it fully to his or her heart. //

Imagination can truly be said to be awe-inspiring then?

[Khandro]

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein.
I couldn't say it better.

[ludwig]

I think I understand the question now. There's no need to bring art into it though. You could ask the same of anything in nature.

I think your point is that 'heathens' are missing out on a whole dimension of appreciation of things because they see an object at face value - a pleasing collection of molecules or brush strokes with no divine cause, inspiration, or meaning behind it.

The answer is no. The universe and everything in it is as wondrously awe inspiring for just being there as a result of science as it would be if a divine entity created it - in fact perhaps more so. It's probably the non-heathen that really fails to grasp the true beauty of things.

[Khandro]

ludwig //There's no need to bring art into it though// You say you understand my response, but you still don't understand the question, please read it again, it is entirely about religious art. Your views on the universe are quite a different matter, and have nothing whatsoever to do with this topic.