Finally, And By Special Request;

[Khandro]

Is a non-provable 'untruth' that makes a person happy, and gives a sense of well-being, not better than a non-provable 'truth' that makes a person feel unhappily jejune?
(please note the words untruth and truth are in quotation marks.)

[Khandro]

Go for it ludwig - you never know.

[naomi24]

I think he does. ;o)

[LazyGun]

I still think you are basing your question on a fundamental assertion that is unproven. In this context at least, your question implies that those with a religious faith have a sense of happiness and well being that those who do not have faith are unable to share- whose lack of faith, in fact, makes them unhappy.

Its a flawed assertion. What objective evidence you have is at best scant -far too many subjective differences and confounding factors to properly test this hypothesis.

If you have faith and it makes you happy, thats great, and you are of course perfectly free to tell everyone around you how good that faith makes you feel.You may wish to reflect upon the social handicap of being labelled a faith- bore, much as me and some of my friends are often termed diving-bores, but thats the price you pay for obsessively airing your own feelings an thoughts to all and sundry :)

If however you ask a question, do not get offended or defensive if you do not like the answer - Especially if you post presupposes a moral superiority as a consequence of your faith, or that your faith grants a better insight into the workings of the universe than the scientific method.....

Hand in hand with an open mind should be the skill of critical analysis.

[ludwig]

Naomi // They won’t work. ;o) //

Prove it ;o)

[naomi24]

Damn!! Foiled again!! :o)

[ludwig]

You should try it Naomi. Believing that I can become invisible should I ever really need to is giving me an enormous sense of well being.

[naomi24]

Oo-er! Where'd he go?

[ludwig]

If I could be bothered, at this point I'd replace my avatar with a plain white one, but I can't.

[naomi24]

Not to worry. I'll use my imagination. ;o)

[Khandro]

LG; //Especially if you post [sic] presupposes a moral superiority as a consequence of your faith, or that your faith grants a better insight into the workings of the universe than the scientific method.//
It is not my intention to imply any personal moral superiority and I admit my own 'faith' is actually very tenuous indeed. There is though plenty of statistical evidence that has to be addressed. For example the suicide rate is glaringly higher among people without religion, I think it is almost 100% so within the US armed forces.
Anecdotally I can say that in my experience, religious folk of all denominations appear to be happier than atheists. The most happiest people elected by BBC poll several years ago were a deeply religious couple who were both blind, earning their living by tuning pianos.
Regarding your mention of the scientific method of the workings of the universe, I am sure you are aware that by no means are all scientists atheists.

[modeller]

You are right Khandro not all scientist are atheists and I was told the other that many vicars don't believe in God either.
I dont find this surprising Darwin was, in common with his peers very religious. Why not,? Evolution could be all down to a God .
Darwin explained the mechanism of how we evolved not who designed it.

Where scientists differ from theists is .
1. The biblical version of creation is hogwash as are the other events in Genesis.
2. Even though we will never know how the universe was created that can not be attributed to a God. That is purely man's assumption based on nothing more than wishful thinking and the desire for an explanation.

Some vicars don't believe in God but do accept the bible as a philosophy for life. The Archbishop of Canterbury said last year he did not believe in the biblical version of creation but still believed it helped people to understand the world.

[modeller]

With regards to your claim of theists being happier than atheists speaking anecdotally . I have lived in my house for 50 odd years and during that time there have been 3 suicides all of which were very religious people.
One spent several periods in the psychiatry hospital , another was the daughter of a vicar, and the third accosted everyone with his religious beliefs. Anecdotes prove little but religion certainly didn't bring them happiness but it brought a great deal of distress to their families.

[Khandro]

modeller; Three suicides in your house within 50 years!!
This sounds like 3 pipe problem.

[mibn2cweus]

Confucius say, "Man standing at edge of cliff shouldn't leap to conclusion."

[modeller]

Good answer Khandro . One was next door the others in neighbouring streets. One point I forgot to mention they were all women who as you know are the backbone of the church and form the majority of most religous gatherings .

[mibn2cweus]

ludwig
If I could be bothered, at this point I'd replace my avatar with a plain white one, but I can't.
13:56 Wed 16th Jan 2013

Some ideas are better kept to oneself . . . but I'm not opposed to sharing. :o)

[naomi24]

^^ Ha ha! Sperlatt! Oops! Missed!

[Khandro]

modeller; Three in the neighbourhood, not good, but better than 3 in the house, we needn't look to a Holmesian solution. I am not giving a specific link, but if you put 'atheism' and 'suicide' into Google there is ample evidence to show the correlation.
Regarding your vicars 'not believing in God'; if you mean the God as portrayed in the old testament, I suspect very few do, but if you mean that they believe in no form of God whatsoever, in other words they are atheists, then they should not be holding that position, and should be de-frocked forthwith.

[naomi24]

Khandro, // if you put 'atheism' and 'suicide' into Google there is ample evidence to show the correlation.//

Are you sure you meant ‘correlation’ – or did you choose that word purposefully to give the false impression that atheism automatically leads to a higher rate of suicide? Religious people don’t necessarily refrain from committing suicide because they’re happier, as you suggest – but more likely because suicide is considered to be a mortal sin, the punishment for which is believed by them to be eternal damnation, and therefore, they are too afraid to commit suicide.

[Khandro]

In 2004, the American Journal of Psychiatry reported the following:

“ Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation."