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A Benevolent God
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Having taken heed of some of the arguments in support of their benevolent god and Kromovacorum's posting on another thread, what are your suggestions for this benevolent god's mightiest works?
Here is mine:-
The boxing day tsunami
Here is mine:-
The boxing day tsunami
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Noah's flood... This is what I mean by it "all tying together" (just about) if you assume that instead of omnibenevolence, etc., God wants us to follow Him. Then as far as I can tell all of these acts can be explained away, just about, as a somewhat violent extension of the good old "class detention" they do in schools.
Not quite sure how anyone can get to the seven-billion figure. My counting suggested something close to 2,000 years between Adam and Noah -- which is not really enough time to get from two (plus any pre-Adamite societies, I suppose, but these wouldn't be in large number) to seven billion?! We just got there now! On general population grounds I'd expect the population to be numbered in the tens or hundreds of millions. Which is still a lot.
But, again, as horrible as this sounds is it so unreasonable from someone who created us and then watched on in horror as we turned away from Him? I just feel that, at times, we're projecting modern ideas of morality onto an Ancient God. That is, just a bit, presumptuous.
Do animals have souls? Do humans, if it comes to that? What is a soul? If it's just some abstract concept of morality then probably we do and many animals do not, but of late we're learning more and more about animals that can surprise us. It seems that monkeys and elephants are both capable of mourning a lost companion.
I get the feeling that the Bible writers underestimated animals somewhat. They are treated as little more than walking meat at times. And by God, too.
Not quite sure how anyone can get to the seven-billion figure. My counting suggested something close to 2,000 years between Adam and Noah -- which is not really enough time to get from two (plus any pre-Adamite societies, I suppose, but these wouldn't be in large number) to seven billion?! We just got there now! On general population grounds I'd expect the population to be numbered in the tens or hundreds of millions. Which is still a lot.
But, again, as horrible as this sounds is it so unreasonable from someone who created us and then watched on in horror as we turned away from Him? I just feel that, at times, we're projecting modern ideas of morality onto an Ancient God. That is, just a bit, presumptuous.
Do animals have souls? Do humans, if it comes to that? What is a soul? If it's just some abstract concept of morality then probably we do and many animals do not, but of late we're learning more and more about animals that can surprise us. It seems that monkeys and elephants are both capable of mourning a lost companion.
I get the feeling that the Bible writers underestimated animals somewhat. They are treated as little more than walking meat at times. And by God, too.
Jim, you are wandering off the path of righteous thinking again! If the bible says animals other than mankind don't have souls then that is good enough for......christians.
As for Noah's fludde..well it is a candidate, but poorly documented and no physical evidence exists. The problem of where the water came from and went back to has yet to be solved and I believe the biblical scholars haven't dared tackle it.
As for Noah's fludde..well it is a candidate, but poorly documented and no physical evidence exists. The problem of where the water came from and went back to has yet to be solved and I believe the biblical scholars haven't dared tackle it.
Jim, //…all of these acts can be explained away… as horrible as this sounds is it so unreasonable from someone who created us and then watched on in horror as we turned away from Him?//
If you believe God is omniscient, as we're told he is, these acts can’t be explained away – and yes, it is unreasonable to attempt to do so. Had he been omniscient, he would have known his creation would disappoint him before he drew up his blueprint. Instead of that we get // And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. Gen.6.6// Clearly, he had no idea what the future held. He made a mistake.
//Not quite sure how anyone can get to the seven-billion figure… plus any pre-Adamite societies, I suppose, but these wouldn't be in large number//
Nor I, and I too think it's probably rather far-fetched. Having said that, it is presumptuous to assume that pre-Adamite societies wouldn’t be in large number. Many creationists believe that humans have existed on earth only for about 6,000 years, whereas science puts a figure of around 200,000 years on it – somewhat longer than the bible reckoning.
//I just feel that, at times, we're projecting modern ideas of morality onto an Ancient God.//
And why not? His record stands, people still adhere to his 'word', and his influence is almost as great today as it ever was. We shouldn't be making excuses for him.
Jom, // If the bible says animals other than mankind don't have souls then that is good enough for......christians.//
On the contrary. It implies that they do have souls, but many believers tend to ignore that bit.
//Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? Ecclesiastes 3:21//
If you believe God is omniscient, as we're told he is, these acts can’t be explained away – and yes, it is unreasonable to attempt to do so. Had he been omniscient, he would have known his creation would disappoint him before he drew up his blueprint. Instead of that we get // And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. Gen.6.6// Clearly, he had no idea what the future held. He made a mistake.
//Not quite sure how anyone can get to the seven-billion figure… plus any pre-Adamite societies, I suppose, but these wouldn't be in large number//
Nor I, and I too think it's probably rather far-fetched. Having said that, it is presumptuous to assume that pre-Adamite societies wouldn’t be in large number. Many creationists believe that humans have existed on earth only for about 6,000 years, whereas science puts a figure of around 200,000 years on it – somewhat longer than the bible reckoning.
//I just feel that, at times, we're projecting modern ideas of morality onto an Ancient God.//
And why not? His record stands, people still adhere to his 'word', and his influence is almost as great today as it ever was. We shouldn't be making excuses for him.
Jom, // If the bible says animals other than mankind don't have souls then that is good enough for......christians.//
On the contrary. It implies that they do have souls, but many believers tend to ignore that bit.
//Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? Ecclesiastes 3:21//
Thanks for the reply.
It depends on what a "large number" is. For an average species on earth you are doing well if you exceed millions -- the most numerous animal other than Man was the passenger pigeon I believe that measured in the billions like us, but that's unusual. So as a rough order of magnitude I'd expect the human population at the "time of the flood" to be of order 100 million (with a great deal of uncertainty!).
I can get round your "omniscient" bit by saying that this means "knows all that can be known" rather than necessarily everything. Don't really know how to interpret this -- can he see and know our futures? Apparently, I'm sure it says so multiple times in the Psalms, and how else did His prophets work?
It depends on what a "large number" is. For an average species on earth you are doing well if you exceed millions -- the most numerous animal other than Man was the passenger pigeon I believe that measured in the billions like us, but that's unusual. So as a rough order of magnitude I'd expect the human population at the "time of the flood" to be of order 100 million (with a great deal of uncertainty!).
I can get round your "omniscient" bit by saying that this means "knows all that can be known" rather than necessarily everything. Don't really know how to interpret this -- can he see and know our futures? Apparently, I'm sure it says so multiple times in the Psalms, and how else did His prophets work?
Jim, //I can get round your "omniscient" bit by saying that this means "knows all that can be known" rather than necessarily everything.//
I’ve no idea why you feel the need to ‘get around’ my definition, but yours is no dictionary I’ve looked at. Sounds like more apologist nonsense to me.
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… and my Chambers Dictionary here on my shelf defines it as ‘all-knowing’.
I’ve no idea why you feel the need to ‘get around’ my definition, but yours is no dictionary I’ve looked at. Sounds like more apologist nonsense to me.
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… and my Chambers Dictionary here on my shelf defines it as ‘all-knowing’.
Well it's because knowing "everything" is impossible, so in practice one can only ever know all that can be known. It's a subtle difference in meaning and I fundamentally don't care what the dictionary says, it's not there to be a philosophy. Or a Scientific tome for that matter.
Rather like "all-powerful" is impossible because of the rock-too-heavy thing. To take these things to infinity is meaningless.
Rather like "all-powerful" is impossible because of the rock-too-heavy thing. To take these things to infinity is meaningless.
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