Can Fundamentalist Islam Survive In The Modern World?

[naomi24]

This question arises from last night’s excellent television documentary ‘Shot for going to School’ concerning the plight of Malala Yousafzai, shot by the Taliban for wanting an education. As well as offering a superb insight into the inflexible mentality of the fundamentalist, it highlighted the determined ambition of many girls like Malala who do want an education, and despite the fear and apprehension that such aspiration engenders within that society, are supported by parents and many other adults alike. I’ve long been of the opinion that with the advent of increasingly easily available world-wide communication a chasm is opening up between those Muslims who are determined to cling to the old ways and those who are no longer content to blindly accept the unjust and misogynous philosophy of their forefathers – but which faction will eventually succeed? The traditionalists – or those who favour progress?

[LazyGun]

"Typically well known atheistic excuse."

Its not an excuse - it is a fact. Zealous belief in religion is based upon a fervent faith - belief in the absence of evidence. Try to reason with someone who has a faith-based world view is well night impossible, and therein lies its danger.


"Then I do know the difference between increase in Muslims due to immigration or birth and increase due to converting to Islam. I came here only 22 years ago and could hardly see any white locals Muslims, but now I do, everywhere."

So - anecdotal evidence, based upon your own biased interpration (and thats not an insult- everyone views the world through the filter of their own bias) tells you that islam is spreading quite apart from migrants.I do your personal testament to the spread of islam.Objective evidence, or we can safely describe this as nonsense.

"Majority of them are educated people who got fed up with your so called “modern life style”. Just learn one thing mate, that you do not have to be Western to be modern or educated. Your so called modern life does not bring anything apart from depression, selfishness and dissatisfaction in one’s life. "

Again - personal opinion based upon your own biased world view presented as factual commentary. Modern life brings a great deal more than "depression, selfishness and dissatisfaction". People are happier now, live longer, experience less child deaths, are wealthier by far than either their forebears or other areas of the globe. You speak festering nonsense. What our modern way of living does do is give people the luxury of griping about pettiness - but that does not equate to serious dissatisfaction. Compare and contrast with people around the world living, to all intents and purposes, a medieval lifestyle - no power, no radio or TV, no running water, poor hygiene and sanitation, little or no education, back-breaking labour from dawn till dusk, child labour, child mortality, poor health through the poor sanitation, desperately poor, poor diet - And you think that this is somehow better, engenders greater happiness, than our modern day lives? You are delusional if you think that,Keyplus.

As for islamic terrorism being just 12 years old? Do not make me laugh. You can trace the roots of islamic terrorism back to the Assassins in the 11th century,an order founded in order to kill opponents of islamic philosophy. The roots of modern day islamic terrorism can be traced back to 1979 and the iranian revolution.

It is long past time that you believers grew up and moderated your beliefs to better reflect the modern world. Something that was acceptable 1400 years ago does not mean it is suited to a modern day world. Trying to claim otherwise, or that somehow it withstands the need for change is just facile. The past is a foreign country they say. A comparison of cultures between now and 1400 years ago is not just a foreign country, its a different planet.

[beso]

Islam is blatant fascism.

Fascists love fascism as long as they are on the powerful side. This is why there is so much conflict in the middle east. They are all fighting to be on top because they know that being on the bottom sucks.

Nothing ever changes because no fascist is willing to give everyone a fair go.

[chrisgel]

//Your so called modern life does not bring anything apart from depression, selfishness and dissatisfaction in one’s life.//
And you've put up with this lifestyle for 22 years. That's what I call sacrifice.

At the risk of being blindingly obvious let me ask you a question that you may have been asked before. Why are you here?

Could it be that you wanted the benefits that come with this "modern lifestyle" but also wanted the freedom to practice your primitive religion? So you looked around and found a country that was so liberal and forward thinking that they would allow you to do this.
So you can have your cake and eat it, and the lifestyle can't be all that bad because you stayed.
Hypocrite!

[ludwig]

// I came here only 22 years ago and could hardly see any white locals Muslims, but now I do, everywhere." //

Women having to convert to marry muslim men, nutty misfits like the shoe bomber, and Cat Stevens.

[beso]

I am satisfied with my life. Some if its best aspects are things banded by Sharia law. Indeed I would have been killed many times over for things I have done.

Islam's "solution" to relationship problems is to allow men to take on more wives when the tire of the first one while women are entirely subordinate. They claim this structure brings stability to the family unit.

Relationship problems in Christian societies still suffer under the dogma of Christianity though they at least made both men and women suffer.

New Age morality teaches that the relationships may pass and there is no point living the rest of one's life in misery. But we also teach that the children have rights for their parents to respect each other.

My first marriage folded as did my wife's. But we honoured our values and our children have thanked us for it.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, when I spoke of ranting hordes, I wasn’t speaking about Anjem Choudary and Abu Qatada – although they very aptly fit the description of madmen who are spouting their bile in this country. The ranting hordes I referred to are those who call for the death of anyone they perceive to insult Islam – Salman Rushdie, an English teacher for allowing her little pupils to name a teddy bear Mohammed, the crazy, mindless, marauding masses who swore death to those involved in the production of the cartoons of Mohammed – and those who succeeded in murdering a Dutch film-maker. These are not ‘a few’. These people rage in their thousands! Islam doesn’t need Anjem Choudary and Abu Qatada to defame it – it does that very well by itself – and no perceptive westerner is blind to that.

You want my definition of a civilised society? Nothing like the society you’d like to see in this country where Islamic punishment is meted out to wrong-doers, where little girls are married off to grown men, where arranged marriage is the norm, where female genital mutilation is acceptable – and where children are taught false science as fact. I will assume that answers your request for me to outline the unacceptable practices that you have endorsed.

Apart from a few disaffected young men, such as the killers of Lee Rigby, and shoe bomber, Richard Reid, converts are, in the main, women who marry Muslims – but don’t get too excited about that. In your 22 years of observation I’m surprised you haven’t noticed all those born as a result of marriages between the indigenous British and people of cultures other than Islam – African, Caribbean, Indian, and Far Eastern, for example. And just think! Had those easily-influenced women, who clearly do not adopt Islam as a result of study, lost their hearts to men obsessed with a different belief system, they could well be dancing to Hava Nagila now, or singing Kumbaya, or jingling bells to the strains of Hari Krishna! Muslims do not hold the monopoly on mixed marriage.

[keyplus90]

////Its not an excuse - it is a fact.////

Every single thing an atheist believe in is a fact.

///everyone views the world through the filter of their own bias)///

So you believe everyone thinks like you do?
///Women having to convert to marry muslim men, nutty misfits like the shoe bomber, and Cat Stevens.///

Or like myself. Then what happens to the argument that Muslims do not treat women properly? Obviously these women are finding Muslims better than the other breed. Equation is wrong and does not add up man. Come on do your calculations again.

Rest is all same keyplusphobia.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, Although he punctuated it correctly, you’ve misunderstood Ludwig’s post. He meant the white locals you speak about are either women who have had to convert to marry Muslim men – or nutty misfits like the shoe bomber - and Cat Stevens.

//Obviously these women are finding Muslims better than the other breed.//

Did you ignore the bit where I said Islam doesn’t hold the monopoly on mixed marriage? Not to worry. I expect you’ll carry on ignoring truths you don’t want to hear – but I doubt you’ll ask me to define ‘civilised society’ again – or to outline the unacceptable practices you endorse.

Keyplusphobia? Careful Keyplus! That smacks of a persecution complex. Perhaps you should see a doctor.

[LazyGun]

@Keyplus

I think you need to read my sentence again.

////Its not an excuse - it is a fact.////

Every single thing an atheist believe in is a fact.

///everyone views the world through the filter of their own bias)///

So you believe everyone thinks like you do?

which part of "everyone views the world through the filter of their own bias" are you struggling to comprehend? It means the exact opposite of everyone thinking like I do! - sheesh.

And enough with the persecution complex. Rather than reject the criticisms and take them personally, you should be considering why so many view elements of religion with distaste, disdain and even disgust......

[ludwig]

// Or like myself //

No. You're not a white Briton that converted to Islam. You're a Pakistani that grew up with it (ie knew nothing else) and moved to this country 22 years ago.
If I'm wrong about any of that, I'm happy to be corrected.

[tonyav]

Then what happens to the argument that Muslims do not treat women properly? Obviously these women are finding Muslims better than the other breed.


LOL, your at it again with the bullshirt aren't you keyplus.

[naomi24]

//you should be considering why so many view elements of religion with distaste, disdain and even disgust...... //

He can't - he simply can't. He is indoctrinated and that’s sad. He is here in this country - a million miles, metaphorically speaking, from the backward society of his birth; he is intelligent, he has worked hard, he is successfully self-employed, he owns property, he enjoys freedom of movement and speech, he is raising several children who receive an excellent education and all the benefits of one of the most socially aware countries in the world – and yet he wants to subject them to the mentality of the retrograde, repressive, society he chose to leave. The thing is, there is nothing here to prevent him from worshipping his God – but that, it appears, is not enough, because along with that he insists on adhering to the less savoury aspects of Islam, which serve only to bully and suppress. Senseless? Yes, it is. Here is an opportunity for both personal and intellectual freedom – and there it is – rejected. How to encourage people to think? Really think? That is the question. This saddens me – it really does.

[emmie]

this is the part i find hard to understand, you leave a country because of it's dogma, way of life doesn't suit, it's harsh and unforgiving to women, you move to the west to make a better life, set up home and then behave exactly the same way. as to white British women converting to Islam, that seems a cry for help, that whatever their lives are like they think because they fall in love, marry a Muslim it will all be solved, and everything becomes clear. I wonder that those women ever actually thought long and hard what it would mean to be the wife of a Muslim, that it might mean the wearing of the burqua, be covered from head to toe, or veiled, doesn't that honestly go against the principles of a free society, or if its their choice to be so garbed, how did that make that giant leap from western ideals, to an ideology that sees women as inferior. That documentary on
Malala yousafazi should be the wake up call to these women especially. That in these countries men rule, women obey, not an attitude, stance i would think any woman should be doing.

[naomi24]

fender62, thank you. This voluntary abandonment of the intellect frustrates me – but you probably guessed that. ;o)

Em, //you leave a country because of it's dogma, way of life doesn't suit, it's harsh and unforgiving to women,//

I don’t believe Keyplus left his homeland for any of those reasons. If he had, he wouldn't cling so doggedly to the more unsavoury aspects of Islam. Although he has stated that Muslims don’t come to the west for a better life, but to show us ‘the way’, I don’t believe that either. He, like all the rest, came here for a better life – and he’s achieved that.

//I wonder that those women ever actually thought long and hard what it would mean to be the wife of a Muslim//

Like all marriages, these result either from love, or for some women, from a desperate urge to be married, so any port in a storm will do. We see in it all societies, but I get the impression that many European women who marry Muslims and instantly accept their ‘place’, adopting the regulation attire, are playing at being Muslims. I simply don’t believe that, in most cases, their eager espousal of their new lifestyle is borne out of the sudden and genuine acquisition of ‘faith’ in Allah.

[emmie]

that was a general take, not about him but i do see this a lot now, that there are many who have come in recent days from places as far afield as Somalia, Afghanistan, and behave as they would back home. Not integrated, perhaps that will happen more with their children, who knows.

[naomi24]

Even if the parents choose not to integrate, the children must to a degree – they go to school. No matter how much a parent wants his children to follow in his religious and cultural footsteps, the western influences the young are exposed to can’t be avoided. Coping with such conflicting cultures must be very confusing for them. I’m sure parents tell their little girls why they must dress in Muslim garb and remain covered, but I shouldn’t think it makes much sense to the children when they see all their friends running about in the sun in shorts and t-shirts. I find it terribly sad.

[jomifl]

Given the Nigerian example the answer must be yes, by the simple expedient of killing anyone who disagrees with them, just as long as they are sure not to kill all the other muslims at the same time.

[emmie]

in pretty much the way that the young women who had moved from Libya i think it was, to Australia. who featured in a series on Australia by Simon Reeves, they chose to play volleyball on the beach decked out in headscarf and fully clothed, they must have been sweltering. Their religion, their culture, nothing about mixing, or at least nothing about how it feels to be in Australia and mixing with the locals, i would like to watch the series again as it was quite an interesting take on the people and landscapes that have shaped them