ChatterBank3 mins ago
Isis Recruits Don't Know Much About Islam...
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... Unsurprisingly. It's fairly obvious that only the truly thick would be up joining ISIS.
//// At the height of Islamic State's drive for foot soldiers in 2013 and 2014, typical recruits included the group of Frenchmen who went bar-hopping with their recruiter back home, the recent European convert who now hesitantly describes himself as gay, and two Britons who ordered "The Koran for Dummies" and "Islam for Dummies" from Amazon to prepare for jihad abroad. ////
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//// "I realized that I was in the wrong place when they began to ask me questions on these forms like 'when you die, who should we call?'" said the 32-year-old European recruit, speaking to the AP on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals. He said he thought he was joining a group to fight President Bashar Assad and help Syrians, not the Islamic State. ////
But maybe it's time we stopped associating the terror-pseudo-state with the religion? It's kind of accepting their own branding to do so anyway. Maybe we need a better way to talk about it?
//// At the height of Islamic State's drive for foot soldiers in 2013 and 2014, typical recruits included the group of Frenchmen who went bar-hopping with their recruiter back home, the recent European convert who now hesitantly describes himself as gay, and two Britons who ordered "The Koran for Dummies" and "Islam for Dummies" from Amazon to prepare for jihad abroad. ////
http://
//// "I realized that I was in the wrong place when they began to ask me questions on these forms like 'when you die, who should we call?'" said the 32-year-old European recruit, speaking to the AP on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals. He said he thought he was joining a group to fight President Bashar Assad and help Syrians, not the Islamic State. ////
But maybe it's time we stopped associating the terror-pseudo-state with the religion? It's kind of accepting their own branding to do so anyway. Maybe we need a better way to talk about it?
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//If a Christian started chopping people up in his neighbourhood and said God made him do it, would you think him representative of the Christian faith?//
No. And for two very good reasons. First reason: Jesus (who is the perfect example for Christians) never went around his neighbourhood chopping people up. Second reason: Christ taught his followers to love their enemies and forgive those who persecute them. THAT is the difference between Christianity and Islam. This point has been made many times, and is very easy to confirm. A person who refuses to see this difference however many times it it is pointed out to him is being willfully ignorant.
//Faith is faith, extremism is extremism - they are mutually exclusive.//
This is a non sequitur.
No. And for two very good reasons. First reason: Jesus (who is the perfect example for Christians) never went around his neighbourhood chopping people up. Second reason: Christ taught his followers to love their enemies and forgive those who persecute them. THAT is the difference between Christianity and Islam. This point has been made many times, and is very easy to confirm. A person who refuses to see this difference however many times it it is pointed out to him is being willfully ignorant.
//Faith is faith, extremism is extremism - they are mutually exclusive.//
This is a non sequitur.
Vetuste - //First reason: Jesus (who is the perfect example for Christians) never went around his neighbourhood chopping people up. //
OK, let's follow an example of something Jesus did do - if someone was to walk into a church bring and buy sale and start throwing people out, saying it was Jesus' example - how would you argue that?
A stupid example?
Of course it is, but you can find something to support your point in any religious tract if you look hard enough, and you're not too picky about the detail.
OK, let's follow an example of something Jesus did do - if someone was to walk into a church bring and buy sale and start throwing people out, saying it was Jesus' example - how would you argue that?
A stupid example?
Of course it is, but you can find something to support your point in any religious tract if you look hard enough, and you're not too picky about the detail.
AB Editor, // Naomi - you can have both, criticise Islam, also, not consider ISIS as a representative of Islam? Or are they inseparable to you?//
ISIS is representative of Islam. vetuste_ennemi asked you what ISIS is doing in the Middle East that is un-Islamic. You didn’t respond to that but had he asked me that question I’d have answered ‘Nothing’.
ISIS is representative of Islam. vetuste_ennemi asked you what ISIS is doing in the Middle East that is un-Islamic. You didn’t respond to that but had he asked me that question I’d have answered ‘Nothing’.
v_e; ^^ chortle.
Ed. The thing is, once you start to say things like "Isis Recruits Don't Know Much About Islam..." you are on the path to exonerate them, in that you imply they don't know what they are doing. You are starting to play with words, not calling a spade a spade, (and presuming too that you do have knowledge of Islam). This is a dangerous curve leading to obfuscation when instead of facing the issue, you attempt to re-name it. You may end up with the absurdity in the former USSR, when the government mouthpiece was called Pravda (truth) and was filled with nothing but lies.
Ed. The thing is, once you start to say things like "Isis Recruits Don't Know Much About Islam..." you are on the path to exonerate them, in that you imply they don't know what they are doing. You are starting to play with words, not calling a spade a spade, (and presuming too that you do have knowledge of Islam). This is a dangerous curve leading to obfuscation when instead of facing the issue, you attempt to re-name it. You may end up with the absurdity in the former USSR, when the government mouthpiece was called Pravda (truth) and was filled with nothing but lies.
I've never been in a church which used the main body of the church for a 'Bring and Buy'. They were always in the hall which (in our case is detached by several hundreds of yards). Anyway, the moneylenders in the Temple were out for their own profit; 'Bring & Buys' are for the upkeep of the church. No personal gain involved.
Re "You have turned my Father's House into a den of thieves", Jourdain.
I think Andy was suggesting that Jesus (and anyone who copied his example) could find himself charged with a public order offence. With a bit of imagination criminal damage as well, perhaps? And with the sacrificial doves there might even be an animal welfare issue depending on how vigorously he knocked over the cages.
I think Andy was suggesting that Jesus (and anyone who copied his example) could find himself charged with a public order offence. With a bit of imagination criminal damage as well, perhaps? And with the sacrificial doves there might even be an animal welfare issue depending on how vigorously he knocked over the cages.
Khandro - I'm certainly not making excuses or trying to obfuscate. I'm actually trying to look at the situation in a way which doesn't give ISIS the reigns on how they're understood.
What you're doing is similar to accepting their borders are where they say they are. Obviously you don't really want to do that.
If, instead, we looked at them as a political movement, without suggesting every muslim is somehow represented by them, then it seems we could deal with them better? We wouldn't be alienating young muslim men within the UK who are already most likely to
vetuste_ennemi - I actually don't have an answer to your question, but it seems like ISIS doesn't represent my (few) Muslim friends - who are peaceful, reasonable people, who just have a bit of a prayer habit...
What you're doing is similar to accepting their borders are where they say they are. Obviously you don't really want to do that.
If, instead, we looked at them as a political movement, without suggesting every muslim is somehow represented by them, then it seems we could deal with them better? We wouldn't be alienating young muslim men within the UK who are already most likely to
vetuste_ennemi - I actually don't have an answer to your question, but it seems like ISIS doesn't represent my (few) Muslim friends - who are peaceful, reasonable people, who just have a bit of a prayer habit...
vetuste - //I think Andy was suggesting that Jesus (and anyone who copied his example) could find himself charged with a public order offence. With a bit of imagination criminal damage as well, perhaps? And with the sacrificial doves there might even be an animal welfare issue depending on how vigorously he knocked over the cages. //
No, what I am pointing out, is that you can find anything in any religious tract to support any action you wish to carry out - as long as you don't mind bending the facts a bit.
The simple fact is this. The majority of religious writing is always 'adapted' from the peaceful bits to the violent bits, the only criteria is what action you want your piece of writing to support.
That applies to anyone from the Westboro Baptist Church to ISIS.
It's easy enough - anyone can do it.
But - and this is the important point - the majority of adherents like to use their tract of choice to support them and make them feel better.
There will always be evil people who will use religion to do wrong things - but for some reason, Islamists are more extreme in this, but that is no excuse to demonise every adherent in the way that some on here wish to do.
I expect to be pilloried for having a 'simplistic' view - do I care?
No, what I am pointing out, is that you can find anything in any religious tract to support any action you wish to carry out - as long as you don't mind bending the facts a bit.
The simple fact is this. The majority of religious writing is always 'adapted' from the peaceful bits to the violent bits, the only criteria is what action you want your piece of writing to support.
That applies to anyone from the Westboro Baptist Church to ISIS.
It's easy enough - anyone can do it.
But - and this is the important point - the majority of adherents like to use their tract of choice to support them and make them feel better.
There will always be evil people who will use religion to do wrong things - but for some reason, Islamists are more extreme in this, but that is no excuse to demonise every adherent in the way that some on here wish to do.
I expect to be pilloried for having a 'simplistic' view - do I care?
Mr Ed Aw that’s ok I know where you’re coming from there. While you are around could you take a look at my post on AB crashing while using Internet Explorer – I’ve timed it – 45 seconds when you are trying to reply then the whole thing freezes –I’m having to use Word then copy and paste –its driving me mad so it is
1ozzy - //Thumbs up from me Mr Ed.
It's not difficult (for some) to differentiate between religious people and extremists hijacking a religion for their own end purpose. //
In the wider world, I would have to agree with you. On some threads on here, where some people seem to have an unbalanced interest in perceiving 'invasions' and 'subjugations' where none exist, that is not always the case.
It's not difficult (for some) to differentiate between religious people and extremists hijacking a religion for their own end purpose. //
In the wider world, I would have to agree with you. On some threads on here, where some people seem to have an unbalanced interest in perceiving 'invasions' and 'subjugations' where none exist, that is not always the case.
I've posted this link elsewhere, but for those who refuse to acknowledge reality it's pertinent here too.
//there can be no compromise, no meeting of minds. Liberal democracy, personal freedom, the rule of law mandated by the people is all an affront to the will of Allah.//
http://
//there can be no compromise, no meeting of minds. Liberal democracy, personal freedom, the rule of law mandated by the people is all an affront to the will of Allah.//
http://
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