Crosswords4 mins ago
Isis Recruits Don't Know Much About Islam...
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... Unsurprisingly. It's fairly obvious that only the truly thick would be up joining ISIS.
//// At the height of Islamic State's drive for foot soldiers in 2013 and 2014, typical recruits included the group of Frenchmen who went bar-hopping with their recruiter back home, the recent European convert who now hesitantly describes himself as gay, and two Britons who ordered "The Koran for Dummies" and "Islam for Dummies" from Amazon to prepare for jihad abroad. ////
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//// "I realized that I was in the wrong place when they began to ask me questions on these forms like 'when you die, who should we call?'" said the 32-year-old European recruit, speaking to the AP on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals. He said he thought he was joining a group to fight President Bashar Assad and help Syrians, not the Islamic State. ////
But maybe it's time we stopped associating the terror-pseudo-state with the religion? It's kind of accepting their own branding to do so anyway. Maybe we need a better way to talk about it?
//// At the height of Islamic State's drive for foot soldiers in 2013 and 2014, typical recruits included the group of Frenchmen who went bar-hopping with their recruiter back home, the recent European convert who now hesitantly describes himself as gay, and two Britons who ordered "The Koran for Dummies" and "Islam for Dummies" from Amazon to prepare for jihad abroad. ////
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//// "I realized that I was in the wrong place when they began to ask me questions on these forms like 'when you die, who should we call?'" said the 32-year-old European recruit, speaking to the AP on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals. He said he thought he was joining a group to fight President Bashar Assad and help Syrians, not the Islamic State. ////
But maybe it's time we stopped associating the terror-pseudo-state with the religion? It's kind of accepting their own branding to do so anyway. Maybe we need a better way to talk about it?
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Off topic but I was watching a YouTube video about this guy who murdered his wife. Prior to it he used his office computer to Google stuff like "How to kill wife". He deleted all the incriminating stuff but it was still on the hard drive - something that he should have known as he was the IT expert in the company. There idiots everywhere - the police love them as they are easier to catch.
Ed. I don't think I have been 'sold' anything by Isis, but I'm afraid your OP shows a little naivety. Many soldiers throughout history may not have been clear on the political objectives of their leadership, but the wish to form an Islamic state based on Sharia Law across the Middle East is clearly understandable to all and is outlined without equivocation in their publicity;
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Ab Editor - //But maybe it's time we stopped associating the terror-pseudo-state with the religion? It's kind of accepting their own branding to do so anyway. Maybe we need a better way to talk about it? //
As jack says, trying to prevent the all-encompassing view that Islam = terrorism is a fight that is seriously difficult to mount - especially on this section.
Speaking as someone who has been at the sharp edge of almost all debates on the subject, I know from experience the tendency for a contrary view to be dismissed as simply lacking knowledge and intellect, but that does not mean that the fight is not worth the effort.
Perhaps we should start a new section - The Sysyphus Page?
(Wow, get me getting all Greek mythological - maybe I am a little more educated than some people would like to think!)
As jack says, trying to prevent the all-encompassing view that Islam = terrorism is a fight that is seriously difficult to mount - especially on this section.
Speaking as someone who has been at the sharp edge of almost all debates on the subject, I know from experience the tendency for a contrary view to be dismissed as simply lacking knowledge and intellect, but that does not mean that the fight is not worth the effort.
Perhaps we should start a new section - The Sysyphus Page?
(Wow, get me getting all Greek mythological - maybe I am a little more educated than some people would like to think!)
To stop associating the ‘terror-pseudo-state’ with the religion would be an enormous mistake. Why, because a few European recruits don’t understand Islam should we give an organisation that tells us precisely what its intentions are the benefit of the doubt? There is no doubt. We have it straight from the horse’s mouth. Lots of people don’t understand Islam but that doesn’t mean the rest of us should join them in ignoring what Islam actually says and teaches.
//But maybe it's time we stopped associating the terror-pseudo-state with the religion?//
Well, Ab Editor, ISIS claims that its aims and the prosecution of war to attain them ARE Islamic. That's made pretty clear in the link supllied by Khandro, isn't it? It also claims that it is administering its "pseudo-state" in accordance with Islamic law. So, if we are to separate ISIS from Islam, what in your opinion is ISIS doing in the Middle East which is un-Islamic?
Well, Ab Editor, ISIS claims that its aims and the prosecution of war to attain them ARE Islamic. That's made pretty clear in the link supllied by Khandro, isn't it? It also claims that it is administering its "pseudo-state" in accordance with Islamic law. So, if we are to separate ISIS from Islam, what in your opinion is ISIS doing in the Middle East which is un-Islamic?
If Islam is intent on taking over the world - given that there are so many of them, and Al Qaeda has been around for twenty-six years now, what exactly are they waiting for?
Or could it be that they are not actually waiting for anything - just living their lives quietly and peacefully and being ashamed of the proportionately tiny minority who carry out evil acts while hiding behind the faith of the majority?
Or could it be that they are not actually waiting for anything - just living their lives quietly and peacefully and being ashamed of the proportionately tiny minority who carry out evil acts while hiding behind the faith of the majority?
That's what I mean Khandro, it's their publicity. Why do you believe them when they say that they represent Islam?
Their propaganda looks good though - a glossy mag and everything! I suppose those FHM writers had to go somewhere!
vetuste_ennemi - I think you've got yourself in a bit of a logical twist there? Not sure what I need to prove to you? They claim to be Islamic, so they are? Is that your argument?
Naomi - you can have both, criticise Islam, also, not consider ISIS as a representative of Islam? Or are they inseparable to you?
Their propaganda looks good though - a glossy mag and everything! I suppose those FHM writers had to go somewhere!
vetuste_ennemi - I think you've got yourself in a bit of a logical twist there? Not sure what I need to prove to you? They claim to be Islamic, so they are? Is that your argument?
Naomi - you can have both, criticise Islam, also, not consider ISIS as a representative of Islam? Or are they inseparable to you?
Ab Editor - //Naomi - you can have both, criticise Islam, also, not consider ISIS as a representative of Islam? Or are they inseparable to you? //
I'd love to join in - but I don't 'think things through' - so good luck!
I'd love to join in - but I don't 'think things through' - so good luck!
What bothers me ED. is, with many "lone wolf" outrages being carried out against innocent people at the behest of Jihadists around the world, being excused as being carried out by the "mentally unbalanced" or "People not of foreign ethnic groups" etc. in fact, anything to avoid the elephant in the room. You are now suggesting that even ISIS jihadists who have created mayhem and been the cause of countless deaths and destruction right there in Syria and Iraq, are not actually proper Muslims and are somehow simply misguided and ignorant.
These terrorists are Muslim extremists (Sunnis encouraged and financed by the Saudis), have no doubt about it.
These terrorists are Muslim extremists (Sunnis encouraged and financed by the Saudis), have no doubt about it.
Khandro - //What bothers me ED. is, with many "lone wolf" outrages being carried out against innocent people at the behest of Jihadists around the world, being excused as being carried out by the "mentally unbalanced" or "People not of foreign ethnic groups" etc. in fact, anything to avoid the elephant in the room.//
I don't think you will find anyone 'excusing' atrocities for any reason. Explaining yes, but that is not the same as excusing. I can explain the Final Solution, but I cannot excuse it.
// You are now suggesting that even ISIS jihadists who have created mayhem and been the cause of countless deaths and destruction right there in Syria and Iraq, are not actually proper Muslims and are somehow simply misguided and ignorant.
These terrorists are Muslim extremists (Sunnis encouraged and financed by the Saudis), have no doubt about it. //
Why is it so hard to grasp that extremism in any faith does not represent the faith as a whole? If a Christian started chopping people up in his neighbourhood and said God made him do it, would you think him representative of the Christian faith? Or more likely someone who is unbalanced enough to see an instruction to kill which is simply not there for the vast majority of other Christians?
Faith is faith, extremism is extremism - they are mutually exclusive.
I don't think you will find anyone 'excusing' atrocities for any reason. Explaining yes, but that is not the same as excusing. I can explain the Final Solution, but I cannot excuse it.
// You are now suggesting that even ISIS jihadists who have created mayhem and been the cause of countless deaths and destruction right there in Syria and Iraq, are not actually proper Muslims and are somehow simply misguided and ignorant.
These terrorists are Muslim extremists (Sunnis encouraged and financed by the Saudis), have no doubt about it. //
Why is it so hard to grasp that extremism in any faith does not represent the faith as a whole? If a Christian started chopping people up in his neighbourhood and said God made him do it, would you think him representative of the Christian faith? Or more likely someone who is unbalanced enough to see an instruction to kill which is simply not there for the vast majority of other Christians?
Faith is faith, extremism is extremism - they are mutually exclusive.
//vetuste_ennemi - I think you've got yourself in a bit of a logical twist there? Not sure what I need to prove to you? They claim to be Islamic, so they are? Is that your argument?//
I'll have to try harder to make my point, Ed. No, I'm not saying ISIS are Islamic because they claim to be. My post was arguing neither for nor against. It was YOU who suggested that ISIS had misappropriated the religion by the phrases "it's time we stopped associating..." and "their own branding". Have I misunderstood the OP? My question, which I repeat, is: What are they DOING which contradicts their claim?
I'll have to try harder to make my point, Ed. No, I'm not saying ISIS are Islamic because they claim to be. My post was arguing neither for nor against. It was YOU who suggested that ISIS had misappropriated the religion by the phrases "it's time we stopped associating..." and "their own branding". Have I misunderstood the OP? My question, which I repeat, is: What are they DOING which contradicts their claim?
Ludwig - //There do seem to be an awful lot of nutters misappropriating Islam for their own ends though. Why don't they pick on another religion? Is Islam just very unlucky? //
The difference with Islam as I see it (and I am not an expert, but hopefully you have heard me say that enough times!!!) and this is simply my viewpoint - is that unlike a lot of religions, which simply form a part of the life of the adherent, Islam is the life. It informs on a social and cultural level far more than a lot of faiths, and for that reason, it can lend itself to being taken far too far by unbalanced people who think they are carrying out the will of their faith, but in fact they are not, and simply use it as a peg to hang their own psychopathy on.
Add in the passion and temper that forms part of the Arab psyche, and the ingredients are all there.
The difference with Islam as I see it (and I am not an expert, but hopefully you have heard me say that enough times!!!) and this is simply my viewpoint - is that unlike a lot of religions, which simply form a part of the life of the adherent, Islam is the life. It informs on a social and cultural level far more than a lot of faiths, and for that reason, it can lend itself to being taken far too far by unbalanced people who think they are carrying out the will of their faith, but in fact they are not, and simply use it as a peg to hang their own psychopathy on.
Add in the passion and temper that forms part of the Arab psyche, and the ingredients are all there.
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