News1 min ago
Did Jesus Exist
48 Answers
Was going to post on Lonnies thread below but didnt want to hijack his thread.
When discussing jesus with christians they always use the 'trilemma' argument...that Jesus must have been either Lord, liar or lunatic (a C.S.Lewis concept I think) I always respond that they are missing another option...legend.
I see no good reason to suppose that Jesus ever existed. The 'evidence' for a historical Jesus is at best scant and at worse non existant. The gospel stories read as an obvious retelling of ancient dying and resurrecting saviour gods. If read literally they make no sense at all but if read as the myth that they were intended to be then they can be read in a different light.
(by myth I mean as the ancients would have used the word...a story to convey deeper truths and not to be taken literally)
Thoughts?
When discussing jesus with christians they always use the 'trilemma' argument...that Jesus must have been either Lord, liar or lunatic (a C.S.Lewis concept I think) I always respond that they are missing another option...legend.
I see no good reason to suppose that Jesus ever existed. The 'evidence' for a historical Jesus is at best scant and at worse non existant. The gospel stories read as an obvious retelling of ancient dying and resurrecting saviour gods. If read literally they make no sense at all but if read as the myth that they were intended to be then they can be read in a different light.
(by myth I mean as the ancients would have used the word...a story to convey deeper truths and not to be taken literally)
Thoughts?
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Zacs; Christianity (and I'm not a FULLY paid up member) is booming now in China, Russia and the US, I really hope the tide turns in Europe or I fear 2,000 years of culture will be lost, as it already is being in parts.
Our churchmen are pathetic, if ever there was a time when an inspirational religious leader was required, it is now.
Our churchmen are pathetic, if ever there was a time when an inspirational religious leader was required, it is now.
Khandro, although the subject you’ve raised isn’t relevant to this thread, with apologies to nailit, I’ll respond to it. Firstly, contrary to popular belief, whilst the Anglican brand of Christianity is in decline, evangelical Christianity is, in fact, growing.
Secondly, you appear to harbour a romanticised desire for the Crusades to be revisited but unless the inspirational religious leader you crave happens to be Jesus returned with proof of his identity as the supernatural son of a God that so many have, by virtue of rationality, abandoned or rejected – and nothing less will induce the resolute non-believer or those who adhere to religions other than Christianity - to change his mind - religious war isn’t going to happen. That said, should the very real threat that radical Islam poses ever be universally acknowledged for what it is - and I think eventually it must be - I don’t believe opposition would emanate solely from the ranks of Christianity. You forget that it’s not only Christians who are likely to oppose the imposition of Islam. Atheists together with those of religions other than Christianity - and there are many millions of them - would be just as likely to baulk at the potential wholesale destruction of their freedom to believe as they wish as you are. Whilst Islam remains, and always will remain, intellectually entrenched in the past, the rest of us generally acknowledge that the world is a very different place now. I don’t think you’ve really thought your Crusades idea through.
Secondly, you appear to harbour a romanticised desire for the Crusades to be revisited but unless the inspirational religious leader you crave happens to be Jesus returned with proof of his identity as the supernatural son of a God that so many have, by virtue of rationality, abandoned or rejected – and nothing less will induce the resolute non-believer or those who adhere to religions other than Christianity - to change his mind - religious war isn’t going to happen. That said, should the very real threat that radical Islam poses ever be universally acknowledged for what it is - and I think eventually it must be - I don’t believe opposition would emanate solely from the ranks of Christianity. You forget that it’s not only Christians who are likely to oppose the imposition of Islam. Atheists together with those of religions other than Christianity - and there are many millions of them - would be just as likely to baulk at the potential wholesale destruction of their freedom to believe as they wish as you are. Whilst Islam remains, and always will remain, intellectually entrenched in the past, the rest of us generally acknowledge that the world is a very different place now. I don’t think you’ve really thought your Crusades idea through.
n. Off topic, but who cares? So you think there is no link between paganism and the burgeoning Islamification of Europe? as with;
'Teaching children fundamental British values is an act of "cultural supremacism," according to the National Union of Teachers, which wants to replace the concept with one that includes "international rights."
More than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts, according to a 615-page survey. Only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with radical Islam. In addition, 23% of British Muslims said Islamic Sharia law should replace British law in areas with large Muslim populations.'
Such a state of affairs would not IMO flourish in a truly Christian environment (though I concede it isn't the only agency required) and your use of the word crusade seems to conjure up a proposal by me of us going there to neutralise them, whereas, the plain fact is, they are here doing exactly that to us.
'Teaching children fundamental British values is an act of "cultural supremacism," according to the National Union of Teachers, which wants to replace the concept with one that includes "international rights."
More than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts, according to a 615-page survey. Only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with radical Islam. In addition, 23% of British Muslims said Islamic Sharia law should replace British law in areas with large Muslim populations.'
Such a state of affairs would not IMO flourish in a truly Christian environment (though I concede it isn't the only agency required) and your use of the word crusade seems to conjure up a proposal by me of us going there to neutralise them, whereas, the plain fact is, they are here doing exactly that to us.
I wouldn’t call that ‘paganism’, Khandro, more like woolly liberal thinking, the limp acceptance of which has resulted in the west becoming its own worst enemy. Just to turn your contention on its head a little, one could be forgiven for aligning the ‘Love thy neighbour’, ‘Turn the other cheek’ attitude directly with the Christian philosophy that has become so inbred into us over the years. Now there’s a thought!
n. Some interesting points here which stem from talking vegetables (we know a few :0)
http://
Really worthy of a thread on its own?
http://
Really worthy of a thread on its own?
