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Puzzled
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I am still puzzled why so many unbelievers bother to show any interest in matters of belief and religion.
It would be like me suddenly posting on a cookery thread.
Not going to happen.
Why is this?
It would be like me suddenly posting on a cookery thread.
Not going to happen.
Why is this?
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Because religion in all its forms is a universal constant in all known human societies. That's interesting.
Because religion has affected those societies in both good ways and in bad. Different religious ideas, depending where we live, permeate our thinking. They are part of our moral DNA. And that's interesting too.
Because religion tries to offer an explanation (more or less convincing) of those moral impulses without which pack animals like ourselves couldn't survive. And that's more than interesting, it's fundamental to our success as a species.
And theoretical physicists like Hawking, and neuroscientists like Sam Harris don't have the tools or methodology to examine that domain. An incapacity the late Hawking was too arrogant to acknowledge. The more modestly talented Harris has tried, though unconvincingly - as many before him, to propose a "science" of ethics. And that's interesting, because what in some ways are the things most important to our lives remain outside our logical ken, hazy and speculative.
That's why an atheist, but a "Christian" is "interested".
Because religion has affected those societies in both good ways and in bad. Different religious ideas, depending where we live, permeate our thinking. They are part of our moral DNA. And that's interesting too.
Because religion tries to offer an explanation (more or less convincing) of those moral impulses without which pack animals like ourselves couldn't survive. And that's more than interesting, it's fundamental to our success as a species.
And theoretical physicists like Hawking, and neuroscientists like Sam Harris don't have the tools or methodology to examine that domain. An incapacity the late Hawking was too arrogant to acknowledge. The more modestly talented Harris has tried, though unconvincingly - as many before him, to propose a "science" of ethics. And that's interesting, because what in some ways are the things most important to our lives remain outside our logical ken, hazy and speculative.
That's why an atheist, but a "Christian" is "interested".
Moral objectivity is not rocket science, it's what keeps us all alive to choose another day. It's the recognition that we will never get there by believing we are each others sacrificial animal, that ones life and happiness is not acquired at the expense of another's, that life's value is not acquired by commandments, given nor followed, but rather through learning to appreciate and understand the objective value it is. If you cannot be objective about that then perhaps something, (think about it) is clouding your judgment.
For starters, imagine a universe devoid of conscious sentient beings, the way it used to be. Of what value was that universe, to whom and for what? How is it different from that now?
What the universe once possessed was the potential to evolve. Life, intelligence and choice are the realisation of that potential providing us with the means to appreciate the value of a universe which gave rise to our capacity to do so . . . should we so choose.
What the universe once possessed was the potential to evolve. Life, intelligence and choice are the realisation of that potential providing us with the means to appreciate the value of a universe which gave rise to our capacity to do so . . . should we so choose.
Theland, if every 'unbeliever' on here actually did as you say and not show any interest in matters of belief & religion, it would mean your postings on here were totally useless and worthless. They would be not be viewed at all.
But you have effectively proposed and then negated your own argument in one post. The very fact that people on AB do respond to you proves your supposition is incorrect. We may not agree with you but we do take an interest in what you say.
Ever heard the famous quote by Voltaire?
''I disagree completely with what you are saying. But I will defend to the death , your right to say it.''
But you have effectively proposed and then negated your own argument in one post. The very fact that people on AB do respond to you proves your supposition is incorrect. We may not agree with you but we do take an interest in what you say.
Ever heard the famous quote by Voltaire?
''I disagree completely with what you are saying. But I will defend to the death , your right to say it.''
I think what Theland is saying is, ‘If you don’t believe, why do you let my posts demonstrably bother you, as evidenced by the fact you choose to comment?’ Which, to some degree I agree with him on.
I’m guilty of commenting but I shy away from the pointless protracted debates (other than to occasionally point out the pointlessness therein).
I’m guilty of commenting but I shy away from the pointless protracted debates (other than to occasionally point out the pointlessness therein).
Well, Theland, I will bite on this bait…
First, I think very many people, at some stage in their lives, ask those big questions: why am I here? What is the purpose of life? Is there something bigger than me? Each of us who asks those questions will seek until we find answers consistent with our experience and moral values.
Second, many individuals in this modern world self-identify as ‘Christian’ or ‘Muslim’ or ‘Jew’ Those groupings often come with a set of pre-packaged responses to the questions above and others. This makes it relatively easy for those who do not want to think very hard about those questions.
Third, the messages contained in the great and inspirational works that inform those belief systems are overwhelmingly about peace, tolerance, and acceptance without judgment. Overwhelmingly, the recommended behaviour is to “treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself” Overwhelmingly they tell adherents that only God is capable of judging, so mere humans should not judge or blame, but trust their god to make the final judgment.
These messages are consistent across all the main Abrahamic religions, and many other belief systems. Few of us would want to argue with anything that drives people toward those values and behaviours. I certainly would not.
There is, however, another dimension to those belief systems. Each has accumulated certain dogmas, such as what one should eat on certain days, or when and how one should pay reverence to the selected god, or what words or phrases should be used to demonstrate one’s reverence, or what clothes should be worn to pay reverence, or the different roles of men and women. Or what political beliefs are compatible with the chosen religion.
The challenge many of us atheists face is that a very large percentage of those who self-identify as a follower of one or other of those religions appear to behave in ways that are opposed to the teachings of their sacred books. Further we see that many self-identified religionists appear to believe that conforming with the dogma associated with the religious rites makes them a more worthy follower of that religion than adhering to the core teachings.
This results in self-identified Muslims proclaiming that their god tells them to kill. It results in self-identified Christians calling for death or worse for those of other faiths. It results in shootings, killings, bombings, beheadings and torture by those who profess adherence to a faith that specifically rejects those things.
Then we see religious leaders abusing the vulnerable; we see teachers spewing hatred in the name of their chosen god. We see physical and sexual abuse by leaders in their respective churches.
We see hypocrisy.
Deep, embedded, systemic, repulsive hypocrisy.
So, to answer your question, I have found my own path. Yet I remain fascinated by people who claim to have found a path to peace through one or more of these gods, yet who , through their words and actions demonstrate depths of violence and hatred that are diametrically opposed to their professed belief system.
Others on this board have suffered abuse and hypocrisy at the hands of self-identified believers and this has driven them to seek answers beyond the traditional faiths.
I doubt that any of us has a perfect answer to those questions. For my own part, I continue to seek to refine my own relationship with my god (such as it is). Part of that process is understanding how others view this issue.
If I may be personal for a moment, Theland, your self-professed religiosity combined with your intolerance of others, your calls for violence against other people, your willingness to judge others and find them wanting; these come across as perfect examples of why people turn against religions such as the one you profess to espouse.
First, I think very many people, at some stage in their lives, ask those big questions: why am I here? What is the purpose of life? Is there something bigger than me? Each of us who asks those questions will seek until we find answers consistent with our experience and moral values.
Second, many individuals in this modern world self-identify as ‘Christian’ or ‘Muslim’ or ‘Jew’ Those groupings often come with a set of pre-packaged responses to the questions above and others. This makes it relatively easy for those who do not want to think very hard about those questions.
Third, the messages contained in the great and inspirational works that inform those belief systems are overwhelmingly about peace, tolerance, and acceptance without judgment. Overwhelmingly, the recommended behaviour is to “treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself” Overwhelmingly they tell adherents that only God is capable of judging, so mere humans should not judge or blame, but trust their god to make the final judgment.
These messages are consistent across all the main Abrahamic religions, and many other belief systems. Few of us would want to argue with anything that drives people toward those values and behaviours. I certainly would not.
There is, however, another dimension to those belief systems. Each has accumulated certain dogmas, such as what one should eat on certain days, or when and how one should pay reverence to the selected god, or what words or phrases should be used to demonstrate one’s reverence, or what clothes should be worn to pay reverence, or the different roles of men and women. Or what political beliefs are compatible with the chosen religion.
The challenge many of us atheists face is that a very large percentage of those who self-identify as a follower of one or other of those religions appear to behave in ways that are opposed to the teachings of their sacred books. Further we see that many self-identified religionists appear to believe that conforming with the dogma associated with the religious rites makes them a more worthy follower of that religion than adhering to the core teachings.
This results in self-identified Muslims proclaiming that their god tells them to kill. It results in self-identified Christians calling for death or worse for those of other faiths. It results in shootings, killings, bombings, beheadings and torture by those who profess adherence to a faith that specifically rejects those things.
Then we see religious leaders abusing the vulnerable; we see teachers spewing hatred in the name of their chosen god. We see physical and sexual abuse by leaders in their respective churches.
We see hypocrisy.
Deep, embedded, systemic, repulsive hypocrisy.
So, to answer your question, I have found my own path. Yet I remain fascinated by people who claim to have found a path to peace through one or more of these gods, yet who , through their words and actions demonstrate depths of violence and hatred that are diametrically opposed to their professed belief system.
Others on this board have suffered abuse and hypocrisy at the hands of self-identified believers and this has driven them to seek answers beyond the traditional faiths.
I doubt that any of us has a perfect answer to those questions. For my own part, I continue to seek to refine my own relationship with my god (such as it is). Part of that process is understanding how others view this issue.
If I may be personal for a moment, Theland, your self-professed religiosity combined with your intolerance of others, your calls for violence against other people, your willingness to judge others and find them wanting; these come across as perfect examples of why people turn against religions such as the one you profess to espouse.
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