Body & Soul4 mins ago
Right And Wrong
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God is my ulitmate authority on right and wrong, but if you don't believe in God, from where does moral authority originate?
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Seems I remember threads that could be construed as being directed at Christians in which you entered the fray Waldo... certainly didn't raise my ire, as I seem to have done for yours. The question (I can only interpolate Theland's intent) seems to be asking for opinions, regardless of ones religious persuasion... no?... and, since this is as much an opinion site as it is question and answer, I feel it's appropriate to comment on a one word reply...by asking where is the logic in a moral imperative that was a foundation of a terribly immoral endeavor, such as Nazism. Is that such a quandry that your logic is unable to respond civily?
I do apologize if the response to your answer offended you, since that was not the intent.
I find ya'll are sometimes critical of Americans lack of appreciation for the subtle humor of irony, yet when used by anyone except Brits it often offends, as it did here... unique concept...
I do apologize if the response to your answer offended you, since that was not the intent.
I find ya'll are sometimes critical of Americans lack of appreciation for the subtle humor of irony, yet when used by anyone except Brits it often offends, as it did here... unique concept...
So much to answer - just got in off my shift and some family problems to sort out - head is wrecked already!
Probably have to continue with an naswer tomorrow morning - but - thanks to you all for the time and effort put in.
This is really stretching me, and testing me, but hey, that's great, because I'm in dialogue with some pretty smart thinkers!
If my answers are not sufficiently acceptable, then my apologies and I will continue to revise them, so long as your patience lasts.
While you're reading this, (if you're still up that is), I'll be trying to write my first reply.
Probably have to continue with an naswer tomorrow morning - but - thanks to you all for the time and effort put in.
This is really stretching me, and testing me, but hey, that's great, because I'm in dialogue with some pretty smart thinkers!
If my answers are not sufficiently acceptable, then my apologies and I will continue to revise them, so long as your patience lasts.
While you're reading this, (if you're still up that is), I'll be trying to write my first reply.
Llamatron - You ask if I have a problem drowning heathens as in the Noah story.
I don't particularly want to drown anybody, but I take your point.
God chose His people Israel, so that through them He could demonstrate his power.
They were enslaved and suffering, and God chose to save them from Egypt, and destroy their pursuers, in order to fulfill His promises to them, which He did, by delivering them to the promised land.
In Genesis, God promises that He will bless those that bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. He keeps his word, as this story illustrates.
I don't particularly want to drown anybody, but I take your point.
God chose His people Israel, so that through them He could demonstrate his power.
They were enslaved and suffering, and God chose to save them from Egypt, and destroy their pursuers, in order to fulfill His promises to them, which He did, by delivering them to the promised land.
In Genesis, God promises that He will bless those that bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. He keeps his word, as this story illustrates.
chakka35 - You say you have often heard religious people floundering for an answer on moral questions etc ...
I'm not surprised, as so often, religious people follow their churches' agenda, which can be entirely different from what is taught in the Bible.
Our consciences are indeed the moral code that we live by. God has written on our hearts what is right and wrong, so like you, I live by my conscience, but my conscience is Gods way of guiding me. I don't believe it is something evolved.
People can go against their consciences, for the sake of their religion, because their false beliefs dictate their behaviour.
I'm not surprised, as so often, religious people follow their churches' agenda, which can be entirely different from what is taught in the Bible.
Our consciences are indeed the moral code that we live by. God has written on our hearts what is right and wrong, so like you, I live by my conscience, but my conscience is Gods way of guiding me. I don't believe it is something evolved.
People can go against their consciences, for the sake of their religion, because their false beliefs dictate their behaviour.
Let me shed some light on my beliefs that may answer one or two of the points raised.
There is confusion between the God of the bible, and other gods.
Muslims, Hindus, do not worship the same God as me.
There is a spiritual warfare going on, that is reflected in our earthly affairs, and the "evil one", Satan, has hijacked true worship of the true God.
Allah is not the God of the bible. Neither are the myriad hindu gods. That's a bald statement, but there is plenty of evidence to back this up.
Yes, even using logic.
There is confusion between the God of the bible, and other gods.
Muslims, Hindus, do not worship the same God as me.
There is a spiritual warfare going on, that is reflected in our earthly affairs, and the "evil one", Satan, has hijacked true worship of the true God.
Allah is not the God of the bible. Neither are the myriad hindu gods. That's a bald statement, but there is plenty of evidence to back this up.
Yes, even using logic.
Theland, there are several things that irritate me when I read posts such as these from people who hold such fundamental views on God and religion as you yourself do.
1. There is the implied assertion that those who do not worship the same God, or that do not believe in any form of God are somehow less moral. This is a false assertion. There are plenty of examples of individuals who arrived at their moral stance without recourse to a supernatural being, and there are lots of examples throughout history of wicked and heinous acts commited against individuals or even groups/populations by people who were fully convinced through their belief in the word of their God that their acts were somehow moral.
2. People with a fundamentalist view of existence will often present their views as fact. This is wrong.... it may be your faith (belief in the absence of evidence), but it is not fact unless it can be independantly verified and/or empirically observed.
If you wish to believe implicitly in the existence and word of God as represented in the KJV, that is ,of course, your right...but it does not give you a moral high ground. Nor should what is written in the bible be represented as fact, nor should be given any greater weight than words recorded in support of any other belief system.
1. There is the implied assertion that those who do not worship the same God, or that do not believe in any form of God are somehow less moral. This is a false assertion. There are plenty of examples of individuals who arrived at their moral stance without recourse to a supernatural being, and there are lots of examples throughout history of wicked and heinous acts commited against individuals or even groups/populations by people who were fully convinced through their belief in the word of their God that their acts were somehow moral.
2. People with a fundamentalist view of existence will often present their views as fact. This is wrong.... it may be your faith (belief in the absence of evidence), but it is not fact unless it can be independantly verified and/or empirically observed.
If you wish to believe implicitly in the existence and word of God as represented in the KJV, that is ,of course, your right...but it does not give you a moral high ground. Nor should what is written in the bible be represented as fact, nor should be given any greater weight than words recorded in support of any other belief system.
LazyGun - I do not claim anything other than a belief in the risen Christ Jesus.
I do not claim that I am morally superior, but my original question was, in the absence of a belief in God, where do secular humanists believe they get their moral authority from?
I DO believe in the fact of the Bible, and if I said I did not, I would be going against my own conscience.
My conscience, like yours, dictates to me what is right and wrong, and to rebel against it would make me dishonest.
There is such a thing as subjective knowledge, and this falls into that category.
I am convinced that there is objective knowledge to be had, such as the accuracy of prophecy, but not many are willing to consider it.
I have to emphasise, that if I thought for a moment that I was superior in any way, then I would be betraying the very fundamentals of Christianity.
So many people have acted in the most reprehensible ways throughout history, in the NAME of Christianity, the crusades, the inquisition, even in our own lifetime, the troubles in Northern Ireland, yet all of these people have acted without integrity to the teachings of Jesus, and followed their own agenda.
I do not claim that I am morally superior, but my original question was, in the absence of a belief in God, where do secular humanists believe they get their moral authority from?
I DO believe in the fact of the Bible, and if I said I did not, I would be going against my own conscience.
My conscience, like yours, dictates to me what is right and wrong, and to rebel against it would make me dishonest.
There is such a thing as subjective knowledge, and this falls into that category.
I am convinced that there is objective knowledge to be had, such as the accuracy of prophecy, but not many are willing to consider it.
I have to emphasise, that if I thought for a moment that I was superior in any way, then I would be betraying the very fundamentals of Christianity.
So many people have acted in the most reprehensible ways throughout history, in the NAME of Christianity, the crusades, the inquisition, even in our own lifetime, the troubles in Northern Ireland, yet all of these people have acted without integrity to the teachings of Jesus, and followed their own agenda.
Theland.Im really growing to like you, in spite of our differences.You at least try to give a reasoned answer to questions unlike other religious believers on here who's only form of reply consists of insults.
You state that we are given a God given concience and then state that you believe in the fact of the bible and to not believe would be going against your concience.Well Theland, following that logic atheists should all have a pang of concience for not believing the bible which is clearly not true.In fact the opposite is true.If I were to believe the bible then i would be going against MY cocncience as I couldnt, in all honesty, say that I accepted it as truthful as I place a high value on honesty.
Just a quick query...how do you feel about God drowning babies in Noahs flood? Is this merciful / loving? Can you imagine young children gasping their last breath as they cling desperatly to their mothers for life or been dragged down into a torrent of swirling water with dead corpses been battered about.Have you ever seen an animal being drowned.I have and its horrific.Now multiply that by millions.
Its been my experiance that people read these stories and never really take in the implications of them.If God was merciful he could have simply put these "heathens" to sleep but instead he choose the most barbaric way possible to execute them.No Theland, I couldnt accept the bible as my concience wouldnt allow it!
You state that we are given a God given concience and then state that you believe in the fact of the bible and to not believe would be going against your concience.Well Theland, following that logic atheists should all have a pang of concience for not believing the bible which is clearly not true.In fact the opposite is true.If I were to believe the bible then i would be going against MY cocncience as I couldnt, in all honesty, say that I accepted it as truthful as I place a high value on honesty.
Just a quick query...how do you feel about God drowning babies in Noahs flood? Is this merciful / loving? Can you imagine young children gasping their last breath as they cling desperatly to their mothers for life or been dragged down into a torrent of swirling water with dead corpses been battered about.Have you ever seen an animal being drowned.I have and its horrific.Now multiply that by millions.
Its been my experiance that people read these stories and never really take in the implications of them.If God was merciful he could have simply put these "heathens" to sleep but instead he choose the most barbaric way possible to execute them.No Theland, I couldnt accept the bible as my concience wouldnt allow it!
You mean like butchering a whole tribe like the Midianites,except for virgin girls who you can keep for your own use ? Or cursing a Fig tree for not giving fruit out of season or killing off the first born of an entire Country ?
Or burning people in Hell FOREVER for not following jesus ? Some Authority,Some right and wrong.
Or burning people in Hell FOREVER for not following jesus ? Some Authority,Some right and wrong.
exactly brionon.Also the stoning to death of children, the burying alive of a man and his family, the burning to death of people, human sacrifice,god causing people to turn to canabalism for upseting him and sending bears , snakes and lions to kill people.this same god ordering his prophets to eat dung, the list is endlesss.and christians say that WE need HIS forgiveness.
The bible insults my sense of decency,intelligence and humanity.
The bible insults my sense of decency,intelligence and humanity.
I've always found the following instructive:
"And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (II Kings 2:23-24)
Yeah baby, that's where I'm going to take my morality from. Next one who says anything about my slaphead gets it - God says it's okay.
"And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (II Kings 2:23-24)
Yeah baby, that's where I'm going to take my morality from. Next one who says anything about my slaphead gets it - God says it's okay.
Well you've got me on the ropes and that's for sure!
God drowning babies in the flood? Elisha cursing the children who were then slaughtered by bears? You'll say I'm copping out if I try to answer these points, and so I have to confess that I can't.
But, whatever Gods' reasons for His actions, I cannot elevate myself to be a judge of God.
He deals in his own way with those who would touch His annointed, and it's not for me to cry out, "Hey, stop it, that's unfair." By whose standards? Mine? God has the bigger picture, whilst I only see a very small part of it.
Regardless of how we view these accounts, it still remains a conviction in my conscience that the Bible is reliable and trustworthy, and its central message, the main theme running throughout, is Jesus Christ, my Saviour.
I can tell you, that I will be following up the points you have all raised, and try to get a more satisfactory answer. Please give me time. I'm sure we'll meet again on a similar thread in the future.
I'll try to come back to this one in the morning.
Thanks again.
God drowning babies in the flood? Elisha cursing the children who were then slaughtered by bears? You'll say I'm copping out if I try to answer these points, and so I have to confess that I can't.
But, whatever Gods' reasons for His actions, I cannot elevate myself to be a judge of God.
He deals in his own way with those who would touch His annointed, and it's not for me to cry out, "Hey, stop it, that's unfair." By whose standards? Mine? God has the bigger picture, whilst I only see a very small part of it.
Regardless of how we view these accounts, it still remains a conviction in my conscience that the Bible is reliable and trustworthy, and its central message, the main theme running throughout, is Jesus Christ, my Saviour.
I can tell you, that I will be following up the points you have all raised, and try to get a more satisfactory answer. Please give me time. I'm sure we'll meet again on a similar thread in the future.
I'll try to come back to this one in the morning.
Thanks again.
Perhaps a short Sunday school lesson would help Waldo's concern...
First, any quoted verse must be set within a context. Elisha had just completed a mercy healing of the water in the reconstructed city of Jericho, demonstrating the power imparted from Adonai to his prophet who had assumed the mantle of Elijah, but with a double portion... meaning he was doubly blessed to be a blessing.
Secondly, the Hebrew phrase translated here as children is actually neurim qetannim and elsewhere in the Scriptures is consistently translated as young men. Thirdly, Elisha was not an old man... chronologically from II Chronicles tells us Elisha lived he lived around sixty years following this event. He was probably no older than 25 or about the same age as the young men taunting him. Next, the harmless "teasing" was hardly that--they were direct confrontation between the forces of Baal and the prophet of YHWH that had just healed the water supply (casting doubt on the power and beneficence of Baal!). This was a mass demonstration (if 42 were mauled, how many people were in the crowd to begin with? 50? 100? 400?). Notice the taunt itself... very instructive when read in the Hebrew... their jeering, recorded in the slang of their day, implied that if Elisha were a great prophet of the Lord, as Elijah was, he should go on up into heaven as Elijah reportedly had done.
Contd.
First, any quoted verse must be set within a context. Elisha had just completed a mercy healing of the water in the reconstructed city of Jericho, demonstrating the power imparted from Adonai to his prophet who had assumed the mantle of Elijah, but with a double portion... meaning he was doubly blessed to be a blessing.
Secondly, the Hebrew phrase translated here as children is actually neurim qetannim and elsewhere in the Scriptures is consistently translated as young men. Thirdly, Elisha was not an old man... chronologically from II Chronicles tells us Elisha lived he lived around sixty years following this event. He was probably no older than 25 or about the same age as the young men taunting him. Next, the harmless "teasing" was hardly that--they were direct confrontation between the forces of Baal and the prophet of YHWH that had just healed the water supply (casting doubt on the power and beneficence of Baal!). This was a mass demonstration (if 42 were mauled, how many people were in the crowd to begin with? 50? 100? 400?). Notice the taunt itself... very instructive when read in the Hebrew... their jeering, recorded in the slang of their day, implied that if Elisha were a great prophet of the Lord, as Elijah was, he should go on up into heaven as Elijah reportedly had done.
Contd.
Contd.
The epithet 'baldhead' may allude to lepers who had to shave their heads and were considered detestable outcasts. Or it may simply have been another form of scorn. Regardless, since it was customary for men to cover their heads, the young men probably could not tell if Elisha was bald or not. Clearly, they regarded God's prophet with contempt... Elisha then called down a curse on the villains. This cursing stemmed not from Elisha pride but from their disrespect for YHWH as reflected in their treatment of His spokesman. It was the judgement of YHWH that brought out the two she-bears, since Elisha never mentioned them in his curse... Elisha pronounced a curse similar to the covenant curse of Lev 26:21-22. The result gave warning of the judgment that would come on the entire nation should it persist in disobedience and apostasy (see 2Ch 36:16). It was a very significant event for the religious fortune (and therefore, future welfare) of the Northern Kingdom...and it called for decisive revelation from God about the severity of the people's condition and situation... and once more demonstrated the promise of Genesis 12:3... in my opinion...
The epithet 'baldhead' may allude to lepers who had to shave their heads and were considered detestable outcasts. Or it may simply have been another form of scorn. Regardless, since it was customary for men to cover their heads, the young men probably could not tell if Elisha was bald or not. Clearly, they regarded God's prophet with contempt... Elisha then called down a curse on the villains. This cursing stemmed not from Elisha pride but from their disrespect for YHWH as reflected in their treatment of His spokesman. It was the judgement of YHWH that brought out the two she-bears, since Elisha never mentioned them in his curse... Elisha pronounced a curse similar to the covenant curse of Lev 26:21-22. The result gave warning of the judgment that would come on the entire nation should it persist in disobedience and apostasy (see 2Ch 36:16). It was a very significant event for the religious fortune (and therefore, future welfare) of the Northern Kingdom...and it called for decisive revelation from God about the severity of the people's condition and situation... and once more demonstrated the promise of Genesis 12:3... in my opinion...
As long as I'm at it, it is possible for an entire populations to become corrupted, isn't it? Witness Nazi Germany. Haven't we all seen the old films of the mass hysterical worship of der Fuehrer? Men, women and of course the Hitler Youth rankupon rank. Had they prevailed in WWII, do you not think they would have gladly pulled the lever on your parents death camps, Jewish or not? In Genesis 6:5 Adonai specifically states that all people (except Noah and his family) had become corrupted to the point that they were continually plotting evil. The god;s of the people of the time and especially later in Cannan, demanded (and were gladly offered) the people's children to be sacrificed in fire! I don't think we can imagine how evil can so consume an entire population. Have you seen the pictures of the 2 and 3 year old children dressed in (pretend) bomb vests and belts in the Middle East? Do you not believe that those same children will not soon be walking among unsuspecting and innocent men, women and children deciding upon the most destructive moment to push the button? Multiply that by a magnitude to try an imagine the evil that YHWH determined to destroy.
"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)
...And we should not forget that nearly 4,000 babies are destroyed each day here in the U.S. by abortion, nearly 40 million since 1973... an entire generation... 'nuff said...
"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)
...And we should not forget that nearly 4,000 babies are destroyed each day here in the U.S. by abortion, nearly 40 million since 1973... an entire generation... 'nuff said...
Children brought up to be suicide bombers Clanad... children indoctrinated into a faith based system.. a faith which states that it is all right by their God to do this... that their God is their ultimate authority on what is right or wrong.
This same faith based reasoning allows for fundamentalists of whatever stripe to participate in wicked and heinous acts because their God says it is OK.
Both you and Theland take the Bible seriously, as a true interpretation of events. This seems totally irrational to me.
As for the abortion issue, well thats a whole other debate... 1st you have to define your terms, such as when is a baby a baby? conception? 14 days post conception? 40 days for boys or 80 days for girls post conception? All of these views have been variously held by religion to be the point at which a foetus becomes an individual sentient being. Scientists can give a whole raft of definitions, depending on whether they are endocrinologists, neurologists, embryologists etc.
This same faith based reasoning allows for fundamentalists of whatever stripe to participate in wicked and heinous acts because their God says it is OK.
Both you and Theland take the Bible seriously, as a true interpretation of events. This seems totally irrational to me.
As for the abortion issue, well thats a whole other debate... 1st you have to define your terms, such as when is a baby a baby? conception? 14 days post conception? 40 days for boys or 80 days for girls post conception? All of these views have been variously held by religion to be the point at which a foetus becomes an individual sentient being. Scientists can give a whole raft of definitions, depending on whether they are endocrinologists, neurologists, embryologists etc.
Thank you Clanad - I went to bed last night and prayed that somehow, God would help me to discover an explanation for the points raised in the previous postings from Wizard69 & co.
Your superior knowledge of the Bible, the history and translation issues and your willingness to shed light on this are surely an answer to my prayer.
This must be AB at its best, as I feel stretched and challenged and am learning more all of the time.
To Waldo, Wizard and Brionon :- I hope that the answer Clanad has posted will be acceptable as an explanation of the events you described. They have confirmed my faith in the fact that the Bible is true and reliable, and the God of the Bible is indeed awesome.
I have never claimed to know all of the answers, but that does not prevent me from knowing that the risen Jesus Christ is real, is faithful, and will fulfil all of the promises made to me through the scriptures.
I am happy with what I believe, and simply want to share it with others, you maybe.
Your superior knowledge of the Bible, the history and translation issues and your willingness to shed light on this are surely an answer to my prayer.
This must be AB at its best, as I feel stretched and challenged and am learning more all of the time.
To Waldo, Wizard and Brionon :- I hope that the answer Clanad has posted will be acceptable as an explanation of the events you described. They have confirmed my faith in the fact that the Bible is true and reliable, and the God of the Bible is indeed awesome.
I have never claimed to know all of the answers, but that does not prevent me from knowing that the risen Jesus Christ is real, is faithful, and will fulfil all of the promises made to me through the scriptures.
I am happy with what I believe, and simply want to share it with others, you maybe.
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