a broad question

[jojojojoanne]

what are peoples' views on the past ,present (and could consider the future ) of religion (christianity/judiasm/ islam) and also the same question looked at from a spiritual(alternative) perspective?

[Llamatron]

I think people invented gods to explain why things happened. When bad stuff happened people assumed the gods were annoyed and so needed pleasing. Rituals developed with some people taking charge and so religions were born.

I am an optimist at heart and like to think people always strive to better themselves. So I like to think that one day we'll have cast aside these myths and fairy tales and we'll no longer be dictated to by some nonsensical stories written and mistranslated by anonymous hands with their own agendas from centuries ago and interpreted by some random bloke according to the fashions of the day and his own personal beliefs.

Then, just perhaps, we might all finally be friends and learn to play nice.

Fat chance.

[Whickerman]

Islam is where Christianity was 400 years ago, and will expand and conquer.
Except in the American continent where fundamentalist Christians will hold power. Thats the next 200 years. Then the next big thing will have started, probably by one of my descendents, and I will be revered as the god i am.

Or maybe not.

[Llamatron]

Sorry Whickerman but everybody knows Pastafarianism is the one true faith.

[saxy_jag]

... Pastafarianism is the one true faith.

Spaghetti worship? Enlighten me, do! ;-)

[jake-the-peg]

Rather depends on whether you mean in this country, Europe or the World.

Organised religions are facing a tough time of it right now. The CofE has church attendance figures that may be unmeasurable small in a few years. In France they can't find enough people who want to become priests and are importing them from Africa. The small increases seen in Europe at the moment are generally due to immigration and if past experience is anything to go by this will tail off with second or third generation immigration.

So generally a pretty rosey picture, elsewhere in the world superstition still holds sway, a figure of 40% church attendance is commonly quoted in the US, this has been challenged in terms in terms that more may say they do than do, but it still represents a large section of the country on their knees on a Sunday.

It must be said though that certainly in the UK many people will say that they are religous or spiritual in some vague way without having any affiliation to a large or even any religious group.

So I'd see the US continuing their tradition of christianity with Europe becoming increasingly secular with a large minority following let's say niche religions.

Won't stop them getting married in church though :c)

[Theland]

I believe that what the Bible says about the future of religion will come true. Namely, that there will ultimately be a one world religion, a real worship machine for Satan and his servants, comprising an ecumenical hotch potch of the present religions, together with a slot for secular humanists, who will somehow approve of it at least for its political promises, not least the promise of world peace.
But alas, it will be the greatest deception ever and Man will fall for it hook, line and sinker.
This world religion will be led by the antichrist, a religio political charismatic that the whole world will adore and to whom it will pledge allegiance.
Then, the end time prophecies will be fulfilled, with wars and terror on a scale previously unimagined.
Will it all happen overnight? No. I don't think so. But the main players of this scenario are moving into position now, like pieces of a jig saw puzzle beginning to fit together.

[Theland]

(continued) .....
Just look at the situation in the Middle East. The state of Israel was formed only sixty years ago, after being obliterated two thousand years ago, just as the Bible predicted. Jews are returning to Israel, which now has more Jews living there than in the Diaspora. Israel is surrounded by enemies bent on its destruction, as the Bible predicted, but they will not prevail.
The Bible prophecies concerning Israel are so accurate, that one has to be wilfully blind not to see the politics being played out according to the prophetic script.
If the Bible is so right about the Jews and Israel, why doubt its message of salvation through Jesus Christ?
Yes, I am a Christian, and as such expect to be mocked for my beliefs. But that is a small price to pay for the privelege of telling others about Gods' free gift of forgiveness and eternal life.
Check out the Bible prophecies yourself regarding Israel and the Jews. They are truly amazing.

[jake-the-peg]

Theland's not posted a link to let you check out bible prophecies for yourselves

Let me oblige

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.h tml

I agree it is truely amazing

[WaldoMcFroog]

Jake, I have learnt from previous debate on here that whilst Biblical Prophecies may superficially appear to be a hotch potch of nonsence worthy of the most out-there 1960s acid-inspired psychedelia, outright failures and dribbly vagueness that could be interpretted to fit any given scenario as long as you ignore any inconvient facts that don't fit, this is not the case.

You are merely not reading the Good Book correctly. If only you had the necessary humility and holiness of spirit to be able to twist the words properly, you would soon realise how accurate the prophecies of the Lord our God truely are. Seriously - he's almost as good as Nostradamus and Mystic Meg put together.

Ramen.

[Theland]

You wanted a link to Bible prophecy being fulfilled? There are many. Here is one.
But throwing links around is not the way to gain knowledge of the subject, but prayerful reading of the Bible is. However, for those who have already made up there minds without looking at the uniqueness of Israel and the Jews, then I suppose there is little point.
The objective is not to satisfy idle curiosity, but to establish a life changing relationship with Jesus Christ.
http://www.100prophecies.org/

[jojojojoanne]

hi,
just wondering/just a thought: what about the idea of there perhaps being a relationship/ common ground in the foundations of religion and spirituality? and the idea of each/one having a basis/grounding in the other? like nature/nurture, quantitative/qualitative? in what ways are religion and spirituality similar/different?(not just the obvious)

[WaldoMcFroog]

I too have recently discovered a prophecy that has come true.

In the True and Holy Tome 'Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban' Sybil Trelawney prophecies that "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

The prophecy is completely fulfilled in 'Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows'.

You can't argue with proof like that...

Except, of course, you can, because clearly if the Bible is a work of fiction, then it's a piece of the proverbial for any given author to fulfill 'em. Doesn't make them genuine.

Having had a look through the link Theland provided, choosing 'prophecies already fulfilled by Jesus' at random, there's massive postdiction going on for a lot of it; the retrospective fitting of events to prophecies. There's even claims that foreshadowing = prophecy.

[jojojojoanne]

not meant in an 'ecclesiastical' sense, is not both religion and non religion about faith? (from the minute to the immense?)

[Theland]

Yes jojo. It's about faith. The atheist has faith in the fact that in the beginning, something, somehow, came out of nothing. The believer has faith in a cause for this. The cause is God.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Yawn. Yet again Theland trots out his trite 'atheism and religious belief both rely on faith' claptrap.

No, Theland, like every other time you've attempted to pass off this lazy cut-n-paste pseudo-argument as somehow valid, it isn't.

Your argument is actually talking about the facts and arguments used to support of the concept of atheism, rather than atheism itself (one rather succinct way I've seen it put is this; "Atheism is a faith like not collecting stamps is a hobby." (unatrib))

Essentially, what you're trying to do is claim that science is the same as your religions beliefs. But science is not a belief system, so your argument fails even before the nurse can slap its bum and get it breathing. No belief is required for science to work.

Moreover, it's a most peculiar argument to make, even if you actually believe it. Essentially, you're turning an atheist's point of view back on your own beliefs;

"You keep saying we're basing our beliefs on irrational notions, unsupported by evidence... well, er... you do too! Aaaaaahhh!"

i.e. we're as stupid as you are... Yay, now everyone's dumb.

If your argument is from a position of 'You're guessing like we are', you've already lost.

[jojojojoanne]

who says that science is not a 'belief' system? (If you look at the history of science) maybe/could be viewed as a 'rational' systematic,prolonged way of observing the world ,i.e one method, (obv. most people are aware of what irrational and rational beliefs are) isn't science or couldn't it be viewed as a rational creation based on 'created' rational 'rules?'again this is also applicable to other belief systems (that apply to 'whichever/applicable' time periods) Although it is common knowledge that in the west (western civilisation through the ages,politics) our belief systems are primarily based on that which is viewed as the rational/reason/. What is the flip side to this reason?(when reason does not prevail?) a scientist has said imagination is more important than knowledge?Does all knowledge stem from creativity 'initially'?Did science stem from creativity/faith? (or did it come about by chance/need?) again is it about humanity finding/maintaining an appropriate 'faith/truth' in a belief pattern/system?(one persons' absolute truth is anothers absolute lie)

[jojojojoanne]

oh another thought: is all thought not 'initially' created?

[Theland]

In the beginning, God created ..... and here we are.
The atheist says, in the beginnng, there was an effect without a cause. That's faith.
Science is never going to solve that one, without recognising a primal cause, and that cause is God.