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Is crucifixion that bad?
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They reckon Jesus suffered for our sins, but surely if he was suffering for everyones sins, including those not born yet he got off llightly with mere crucifixion
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Me too, but I don't go along with the doctrine of the Trinity, I don't see that there's much evidence for it, and like the virgin birth and Jonah and the whale (another fascinating subject), it doesn't actually matter.
The Father/Son bit works, as does a Holy Spirit floating around with significant powers, but not all three the same person ! It's church doctrine (and incidentally one of the things that upsets Muslims the most).
The Father/Son bit works, as does a Holy Spirit floating around with significant powers, but not all three the same person ! It's church doctrine (and incidentally one of the things that upsets Muslims the most).
Nah, I always thought 4GS was called John but he told his name is actually William so I think it's only polite to call him by his birth name when addressing him as he doesn't like it when I call him 'old man' or 'oi!'
And christians did do that William... they burnt great works of art cause they were offended by them!
Just because they don't do it so much any more does that make it all better? They went off on campaignes around the world to force people to adopt their religion and called them savages if they didn't. Christianity and the church (proddy and catholic) were some of the most corrupt instituions in the world in the past!
Your average muslim doesn't tend to go round blowing things up and sticking a jhad on everything.
Some people are extremists. End of. Most of us just like a peaceful life.
And christians did do that William... they burnt great works of art cause they were offended by them!
Just because they don't do it so much any more does that make it all better? They went off on campaignes around the world to force people to adopt their religion and called them savages if they didn't. Christianity and the church (proddy and catholic) were some of the most corrupt instituions in the world in the past!
Your average muslim doesn't tend to go round blowing things up and sticking a jhad on everything.
Some people are extremists. End of. Most of us just like a peaceful life.
Crucifixion was unimaginably horrifying, lasting, on average, two days and sometimes three. In the end the victim could no longer support himself to breathe, his breathing became shallow and eventually he lapsed into a coma and died.
The gospel account of Jesus' crucifixion lets him off lightly. For sure, if he were able to "cry out with a loud voice" he would have been nowhere near death from the cross. After only a few hours he would have suffered from a sore back from the scourging, non-lethal wounds in his wrists and feet and terrible pain in his muscles, from all of which he could have recovered well enough to walk after a couple of days of TLC by Joe and Nick and their hundred pounds of ointments.
If he did die, then God was guilty of the most blatant favouritism, having allowed thousands of other to suffer the full thing. Good job it's only a legend, otherwise one could get quite cross. (Pun not intended...)
The gospel account of Jesus' crucifixion lets him off lightly. For sure, if he were able to "cry out with a loud voice" he would have been nowhere near death from the cross. After only a few hours he would have suffered from a sore back from the scourging, non-lethal wounds in his wrists and feet and terrible pain in his muscles, from all of which he could have recovered well enough to walk after a couple of days of TLC by Joe and Nick and their hundred pounds of ointments.
If he did die, then God was guilty of the most blatant favouritism, having allowed thousands of other to suffer the full thing. Good job it's only a legend, otherwise one could get quite cross. (Pun not intended...)
So chakka, can you see a bandaged limping figure with a large spear wound in the side to boot emerging from a cave blinking in the sunlight to say to his followers, 'Well I tricked them there, now it's up to you lot to go out into the world and preach on my behalf. You'll be stoned and crucified (properly - sorry) but you won't mind because you can see that I have conquered death with a few jars of ointment and a short rest'
Just to throw the 'cat amongst the pigeons' in a nutshell, some research suggests that Joseph of Arimathea, (who was a friend and sympathised with Jesus) was a very well respected pillar of the community and made an agreement with Pontius Pilate that Christ would be the last crucifixion to take place on the Friday, therefore, he would be suspended on the cross for the least amount of time, as he would be taken down before the Sabbath. (Jewish law does not allow people to be crucified or be hanging on a cross on a Saturday) So in theory (according to some research) it is suggested that Christ may have only been on the cross for maybe as little as two hours and this opens another debate entirely
Crucifixion is no doubt a horrifying way to die. However, as Chakka says, according to the Gospels, Jesus was on the cross for a very short time. His legs weren't broken, and I don't believe he died. I think Toby is on the right track with his conspiracy theory, athough whether it was arranged precisely in that way no one will ever know.
Incidentally, if, according to the church, Jesus is God, wouldn't he have been talking to himself when he cried out?
Incidentally, if, according to the church, Jesus is God, wouldn't he have been talking to himself when he cried out?
whiffey, sarcasm doesn't help here. The side-piercing (where did you get "large" from?) is suddenly introduced in "John" at the end of the 1st Century, having not been mentioned before. Where could the writer have got it from, everyone concerned being long dead by then? In any case, the translation of the passage is disputed; to pursue it is pointless.
And where does it say that Jesus emerged from the tomb to talk to his followers in the way you suggest? They had all run away by then.
It is almost certainly all fantasy, but it makse it more interesting if you separate what is at least feasible from what is plainly implausible.
And where does it say that Jesus emerged from the tomb to talk to his followers in the way you suggest? They had all run away by then.
It is almost certainly all fantasy, but it makse it more interesting if you separate what is at least feasible from what is plainly implausible.
Jesus may have existed, and I think there is probably some history - if only a little - contained within the gospels. Since nobody knows the truth, we can't necessarily dismiss him as complete fantasy - but I do think we have to sort out the rational from the irrational - and the idea of the resurrection, is, in my opinion, totally irrational.
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Yes it is irrational isn't it?
It says that God favours the weak and meek, the poor and dispossessed, not exactly an admirer of success as we would measure it.
But it also says that Gods' ways are not our ways.
So if you don't believe in God, then that does not affect His existence or non existence does it?
It says that God favours the weak and meek, the poor and dispossessed, not exactly an admirer of success as we would measure it.
But it also says that Gods' ways are not our ways.
So if you don't believe in God, then that does not affect His existence or non existence does it?
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