Is crucifixion that bad?

[paulos66]

They reckon Jesus suffered for our sins, but surely if he was suffering for everyones sins, including those not born yet he got off llightly with mere crucifixion

[paulos66]

Theland how do you regard the crucifixion then? Admittedly nasty but would you agree it's not the ultimate suffering considering all the sins he was punished for,

[Theland]

It has been said that no man was ever so alone as Jesus as He hung on the cross.
He was in constant communion with the Father, and as the Father will not look upon sin, Jesus found Himslef totally abandoned to His fate with not even the presence of the Father to comfort Him.
So, don't just look on the six hours, look at the fact that He was innocent, and voluntarily traded His righteousness for our sin, then took the punishment for it, including the punishment of abandonment.

[paulos66]

So the relevance of the crucifixion and the time spent on the cross is mostly symbolic and the real suffering was the abandonment?

[taichiperson]

'This is why I hate organised religion. It relies on man. And man is corrupt. There's nothing pure about it. '
Christianity is based on our all being corrupt from the original sin of disobedience, carried out by Adam. I prefer Buddhism, which says that we have an inherant spark of goodness in us, which we should strive to 'remember' and return to. It seems to me to base your religion on a positive precept is preferable to that of a negative. To be told as a child that you are inherantly bad is psychologically scarring and tantamount to abuse.

[Theland]

taich - Buddhism doesn't deal with sin does it?
It perpetuates it with its belief in reincarnation.

[naomi24]

Morning Theland, are you well?

Abandoned? By whom? Jesus is God, isn't he?

And if his ways are not our ways, since he made us in his image, does that mean you believe he is similar to us in appearance, but possesses a completely different mentality? By saying his ways are not our ways, he can worm out of responsibility for anything. All very mysterious - and all rather convenient isn't it?

[naomi24]

Theland, how does Buddhism perpetuate sin when the aim of its followers is to achieve perfection - Nirvana? Surely they strive as much as the most devout Christian to reach their goal?

[paulos66]

Can someone clarify that if you believe in trinity then the crucifixion is the punishment (as you can't abandon self) if not it's the abandonment

[Theland]

Hello Naomi. I Missed you.

Abandoned by the Father.
An acceptance of the Trinity is necessary to understand this of course.

[Theland]

Naomi - Buddhism does not have any justice in it. Sin goes unpunished. The reincarnated soul sins again and again and again.
It is, I think, misleading.

[naomi24]

Thank you Theland, it's good to know I've been missed.

Yes, I understand that the acceptance of the Trinity is necessary to enable one to take your view - but the Trinity, in my opinion, is yet another man-made, irrational concept.

[paulos66]

acceptance before understanding ???????????????

[naomi24]

Theland, Buddhism does carry a form of punishment for wrong-doing in as much as, according to their performance in their previous lives, souls are reincarnated in different forms - as animals for example - or as a healthier and wealthier human being.

[Theland]

The Bible does not use the word trinity, but infers it quite explicitly.
One God not three, but three persons of the one true living God.
Yes Paulos, the texts explain it, Jesus' words explain it, but we cannot understand it, but have to accept it.
We are the created beings. How can we fully understand the Creator apart from what He reveals to us, and what He reveals through his word, is enough.

[paulos66]

Naomi, is that correct about wealthier? I wasn't aware that Buddhism was materialistic like that

[taichiperson]

Reincarnation, according to some Buddhist teaching, is random unless you have achieved a certain level - you may be reborn as an animal even if you led a reasonably 'good' life or didn't follow buddhist teachings and practices.
Is sin just a Christian concept? I'm not talking about wrongdoing, just interested in the definition of sin - is it just disobedience of God's laws?

[paulos66]

Theland, and we were playing nicely until then

[Theland]

Sin. - Only God is perfect. This is described as, 'Holy.' Anything or anyone falling short of Gods' absolute perfection, or,'holiness,' is guilty of sin.
...... and ...... the wages of sin is death.
That satisfies Gods justice.
So we are all doomed.
Or are we?
No, because Jesus, who was without sin, took our sin upon himself and then took the punishment for it. That is true love.

[4GS]

Not only a Christian concept

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin

[taichiperson]

So it's like God said 'Don't do anything I wouldn't' and the archbishops, Popes, etc are free to call just about anything 'sin' in order to get their flock to toe the line......