A better place

[LeedsRhinos]

Would the world be a better place without any Religion

[luna-tic]

Are many organised religions really about spreading the word, doing good for others or just the grabbing of the money and keeping it?

[Jillius]

I have no objection to anyone being religious, but I do object to it being pushed down my throat !
It's like double glazing..........if I want it ,I'll ask for it !!

[chakka35]

Explain that, please, toby99

[Octavius]

A world without organised religion would result in a world with disorganised religion. When people say religion causes wars, it is the factious elements of religion that causes conflict, wars, genocide, hatred and global warming (probably). Those elements would still exist without organisation and with the break up and devolution of a central religious point they would become more powerful as people seek out spiritual orientation. It is likely that there would be even more secular in-fighting, out-fighting, hatred and wars.

A lot of people want to fight and are full of hate. It is in their nature, so they will continue with terrorism, conflict, hate-filled atrocities in the name of anything they so desire whether that be the Peoples Front of Bigotry, the Bigots Front of The Brotherhood of the Hedgehog Appreciation Society, sectarian violence, cultural intolerance, political ambitions, greed or just basic odium.

If people think a word without (organised) religion would be a better and harmonious place, I feel they may be deluded.

[chakka35]

Yes, of course, Octavius, there is a lot of evil about that has nothing to do with religion. But the evil connected with religion exists only because the religion exists. Without religion we would have had no Inquisition, no Crusades, no witch-hunts or burning of heretics, no sectarian violence in Northern ireland and the Middle East, no mutilation and suppression of women, no suicide bombers or demands that infdels be beheaded. (For a longer list see the first page of the Preface to Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion.)

We will never remove all evil from the world but we could remove that portion of it which has such an obvious, unnecessary and irrational cause.

[4GS]

chakka35
most of those conflicts you mention were caused by religion, but, if there was no religion, then the excuse would be politics.
I have first hand experience of the violence in Northern Ireland, the Middle east, the Balkans, and I am more than qualified to say that they were caused more by politics than religion, the excuse for the violence was religion.

[pussglen]

Religion is the cause of all thats wrong in our world when you think about it every war as far back as you can go has religion the cause of it or involved in it I dont think Im wrong or am I.

[woodhamgirl]

definitely yes - there would be less violence

[4GS]

no no no,
religion is the excuse,
take that away and they would find another excuse

[4GS]

I must re read my history books, I didn't realise that:
The Napollionic wars
The Franco Prussian war 1871
The American war of independance
WW1
WW2
The Korrean war
The Vietnam war
The Falklands war
Greneda
The Iran, Iraq war
The first gulf war
The Balkan wars
Kosovo
were all started by religion. Mankind wages war, always have, always will, there are many reasons for warfare, religion is only one of many excuses

[Octavius]

Chakka - It was a political process that ended the troubles, so the motivation must have been political, no? Of course there is still violence within Northern Ireland but this is now called gang-warfare or turf wars. The religious cause has now been lost amongst the general desire to hate people who are �not from our street� and fuel further violence.

Who can really say what would have happened throughout history without religion, but to say that we would never have experienced power struggles and control of the monarchy (Spanish Inquisition) political greed and personal ambition (Crusades) and cultural intolerance (medieval justice) is a tad excitable.

Would you consider that the current wars in the Middle East are also Crusades?

[WaldoMcFroog]

Surely it's disingenous to pretend that religion and politics are exclusive entities? They are obviously not; Ian Paisley is a church leader (I believe he's not actually a reverend, trhough?) and the leader of the Northern Ireland Assembly. His religion unquestionably informs his politics.

Similarly with the Balkans, it's simplistic to divorce religion from the politics since the two Balkans wars were absolutely dependent on their being faith-segregated populations.

[Octavius]

I wasn�t, I was saying if religion hadn�t existed, could we be sure that our history would not be peppered with the same amount of hatred and political greed?

I never knowingly espouse my beliefs on you, nor expect you to agree with them, but you are always quick to hound me down and denounce my views. Is it in your nature or is it my religion, or are our views just poles apart?

[WaldoMcFroog]

You were the last of several people to make much the same point. It was as much to Mr Lambert and everyone else as you.

If, however, I do seize on your points more than some other people's, please take as a sign I find them interesting enough to respond to, not any sign of a vendetta. I like a robust discussion, and it's sincerely not anything personal, I assure you.

[jno]

'When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing - they believe in anything.' - Chesterton.

I think he's right: as Christian faith declines, belief in angels and alien abductions seems to be growing. I'm not sure this makes the world a better place.

[chakka35]

jno, it�s not a good idea to give us that Chesterton quote, one of the most fatuous remarks ever made on the subject : (a) it is demonstrably not true and, (b) it is obviously the reverse of the truth. Just consider:

I don�t believe in God, and here are some of the other things I don�t believe in:

Acupuncture, afterlife, alchemy, alien abductions, angels, astrology, Bermuda triangle, channeling, chiropractic, clairvoyance, creationism, crystal-gazing, devils, ESP, evil spirits, fairies, faith-healing, flat earth, fortune-telling, Freudian dream analysis, ghosts, goblins, hell, heaven, holocaust denial, homeopathy, intelligent design, irreducible complexity, Jesus story, levitation, Loch Ness monster, Lourdes cures, lucky numbers/stones/dates/colours etc., magic carpets/spells/rings/cloaks etc., magnet therapy, miracles, naturopathy, numerology, osteopathy, palmistry, phrenology, prayer, psychokinesis, psychoanalysis, reflexology, reincarnation, resurrection, roulette systems, Santa Claus, souls, spiritualism, spoon-bending, stigmata, tarot cards, tealeaf-reading, telepathy, Tony Blair�s integrity, Tooth Fairy, unicorns, virgin births, weeping statues�

I could probably double or treble this list, but I think the point is made. The fact that I don�t believe in God does not mean that I would believe in anything.

The remark is the reverse of the truth because it should be obvious that the sort of mind that would believe in a supernatural being who does magical things and for whose existence there is not a scrap of evidence is precisely the sort of mind that would believe in other weird things. Just check the above list and note how many of the items are believed in by religionists.

Better quote: �He that believes in God would believe in anything.� � chakka 35

[chakka35]

4GS you should pay more attention. It has been made very clear that no-one is claiming that all evil is caused by religion. So your list is irrelevant.

[jno]

I think that's the point, chakka: people generally seem inclined to religious belief (this doesn't mean everyone; but I read a while ago scientists suspect there may be some sort of 'religion gene' - don't know if they actually found one), and the fact that God or Allah go out of fashion makes no difference. There are plenty of people on AB alone who seem not to be Christians but nonetheless believe passionately, and without an overload of evidence, that all foreigners are wicked, all politicians are corrupt, Jean Charles de Menezes behaved like a terrorist, jumped a ticket barrier and fled from the polilce...etc etc. Doing without religion wouldn't mean doing without illogicality; it seems to be hardwired in us.