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good ol' Christians
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If they worship Christ then they are christians. Very extreme christians but christians non the less. You cannot portray them as reprentatives of all christians, or that all christians are bad because these people behave abhorantly.
In the same way, you cannot condemn all muslims because some extreme ones blow up trains.
In the same way, you cannot condemn all muslims because some extreme ones blow up trains.
Waldo, in this instance, just as with other abstract acts of violence against people and our civilities, I�m not certain this really was �religious� in its context. Instead, I feel these people were already oozing with their illness of hatred and contempt against society. These cowardly people, as with others, simply reached for what they felt might be easiest to hide behind. It would be interesting to see a follow-up article from Louis Theroux on what has become of the family and particularly whether any of the children have escaped this insanity.
Fr B
Fr B
The problem as I see it, is that everytime someone professing to have a faith does something which offends the ethics and morals of the majority of the people, and does so as a stated consequence of their beliefs - as these gits have - then moderates such as yourself pop up to quickly dissassociate that person from the religion.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to be associated with them either, and I totally understand why it happens. However, there gets a point where you surely have to say, 'is there something about this stuff that means that nutjobs can use it to justify terrible acts?' The fact is the Bible unequivocably states that homosexuals are an abomination to God (Lev 18:22) and should be killed (Lev 20:13). Romans 1:31-32 reiterates that even under the New Covernant, homosexuality is worthy of death and 1 Cor 6:9-10 specifies homosexuality will bar a person from Heaven.
Is it really unreasonable to say that there is an inherant problem with the religion as well as the people who carry out the abhorant acts as a result of it?
I don't think so, and moreover, I don't think people like you are decent people because of the Bible, I think you're decent people in spite of the Bible.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to be associated with them either, and I totally understand why it happens. However, there gets a point where you surely have to say, 'is there something about this stuff that means that nutjobs can use it to justify terrible acts?' The fact is the Bible unequivocably states that homosexuals are an abomination to God (Lev 18:22) and should be killed (Lev 20:13). Romans 1:31-32 reiterates that even under the New Covernant, homosexuality is worthy of death and 1 Cor 6:9-10 specifies homosexuality will bar a person from Heaven.
Is it really unreasonable to say that there is an inherant problem with the religion as well as the people who carry out the abhorant acts as a result of it?
I don't think so, and moreover, I don't think people like you are decent people because of the Bible, I think you're decent people in spite of the Bible.
sorry forgot to come back to this last night!
I just don't get it! I dont know how you can pick your values based on 'that' book! why is it taken so literally in some parts but then the most vague passing comments can be taken as gospel! in others (lil joke there!) for instance when it says love thy neighbour- why dont christians literally love thy neighbour even if they just so happen to be gay -shouldn't that rule supercede anything else?
people read the book and then apply what is personally acceptable to them and then that determines there actions.
I just don't get it! I dont know how you can pick your values based on 'that' book! why is it taken so literally in some parts but then the most vague passing comments can be taken as gospel! in others (lil joke there!) for instance when it says love thy neighbour- why dont christians literally love thy neighbour even if they just so happen to be gay -shouldn't that rule supercede anything else?
people read the book and then apply what is personally acceptable to them and then that determines there actions.
Oh come on Waldo, our minister�s use any means necessary to support and justify their actions, one such example was the Iraq war. They decided on our behalf, using the �evidence� as they saw fit to scaremonger the people of the UK into believing that we should go to war. All based on misinterpretation, manipulation, lies and fabrication of course, but would you not agree to be someone who quickly pops up to dissociate yourself with our Parliament in this decision simply because you are British? Or is it only because you disagree with war?
Not in my name.
I popped up because I am a Christian, and these people bear no resemblance to me and I find their actions and abuse of the Bible abhorrent. If I sit in silence, then that would suggest I might agree with them and share their view of the Bible. Much as someone who agrees with the war in Iraq will sit and applaud our politicians, or those that disagree will have an opinion and make their point.
Not in my name.
I popped up because I am a Christian, and these people bear no resemblance to me and I find their actions and abuse of the Bible abhorrent. If I sit in silence, then that would suggest I might agree with them and share their view of the Bible. Much as someone who agrees with the war in Iraq will sit and applaud our politicians, or those that disagree will have an opinion and make their point.
except that the war in iraq was based on evidence not faith.
the war on iraq was based on apparent, at the time black and white evidence that was later proved to be completely fabricated.
their actions were based on beliefs that can never be quantified and disproved. Just like all the teachings in the bible that YOU believe to be the word of god and take that as your evidence that can neither be proved or disproved. They have looked at that book and come to different conclusions that you have and how can you disassociate from them when they ultimately believe in the same god as you do!
How do you convince us non believers that your way is correct when it is so open to opinion and is not even coherent! -as proved by the family in america how can you prove that you are right and they are wrong when its faith by definition!?
the war on iraq was based on apparent, at the time black and white evidence that was later proved to be completely fabricated.
their actions were based on beliefs that can never be quantified and disproved. Just like all the teachings in the bible that YOU believe to be the word of god and take that as your evidence that can neither be proved or disproved. They have looked at that book and come to different conclusions that you have and how can you disassociate from them when they ultimately believe in the same god as you do!
How do you convince us non believers that your way is correct when it is so open to opinion and is not even coherent! -as proved by the family in america how can you prove that you are right and they are wrong when its faith by definition!?
Eh..? Where did I argue that you couldn't disagree with these nutters? Nowhere. In fact I specifically remarked on the fact that people like you and Fr Bill would recognise how abhorant their behaviour was. Nowhere did I say you two and those like you were the same as the Landsdown Baptists.
That doesn't change the fact that these people's actions are a direct consequence of their religious views, and those religious views are unquestionably derived from what is plainly stated in your shared religious text.
That doesn't change the fact that these people's actions are a direct consequence of their religious views, and those religious views are unquestionably derived from what is plainly stated in your shared religious text.
The actions of those people are a direct consequence of their inherent hatred for modern society and their views are unquestionably contrived from our shared religious text.
If what you have said was the general consensus of the Bible across the Christian faith, then there would be a lot more members of the Westboro Church. Fortunately this is not the case.
Hence we do 'quickly pop up' to disassociate ourselves.
If what you have said was the general consensus of the Bible across the Christian faith, then there would be a lot more members of the Westboro Church. Fortunately this is not the case.
Hence we do 'quickly pop up' to disassociate ourselves.
So? I'm not saying you're wrong for doing that. I'm glad that you feel the same way I do!
The fact remains, the book that your faith reveres (to a greater or lesser extent) as being directly inspired by an all powerful deity says in black and white that homosexuality is a sin against god, will bar entry from heaven and is abhorent. That is even if you allow for Christ's new covenant in the NT. It is on the page and unambigous.
Although I'm happy that you're against those idiots, it's you who is the apostate, not them.
The fact remains, the book that your faith reveres (to a greater or lesser extent) as being directly inspired by an all powerful deity says in black and white that homosexuality is a sin against god, will bar entry from heaven and is abhorent. That is even if you allow for Christ's new covenant in the NT. It is on the page and unambigous.
Although I'm happy that you're against those idiots, it's you who is the apostate, not them.
oh of course because the more people that have the same faith as you definately means that you are correct?
even though you probably share hundreds of different view points within your faiths for eg the trinity?
theres another post on this site of people trying to explain the trinity to everyone, how come you haven't distanced yourself from them? why isnt there thousands of factions within christianity for all the believers differnt tranches of the same faith? It seems to me you'll accept other people beliefs on some things and not on others again where is the cohesion for us non believers? I just can't get my head round what it is you actually believe in?
even though you probably share hundreds of different view points within your faiths for eg the trinity?
theres another post on this site of people trying to explain the trinity to everyone, how come you haven't distanced yourself from them? why isnt there thousands of factions within christianity for all the believers differnt tranches of the same faith? It seems to me you'll accept other people beliefs on some things and not on others again where is the cohesion for us non believers? I just can't get my head round what it is you actually believe in?
Waldo � If I am an apostate because I accept homosexuality, then so be it. I am sure I could find a quote in the Bible that would support my belief in that respect, but I am not here to preach or justify myself. If as you put it, I get barred from heaven for that, then I imagine I will just have to take that chance. If you do not believe in the concept of heaven and hell, then does it really matter to you?
Sherman - Why should you need get your head around what I believe in, I thought I made my views above quite clear? I am not here to convert, convince or decree my faith to anyone, only to partake in Q&A with reasonable debate. Your opening gambit included my faith, so in some respects I joined this thread to defend myself against your global viewpoint.
I haven�t gone into that post, because frankly I cannot be arsed. I watched the Louis Theroux programme with these people on, and wished to opine from my own perspective.
Sherman - Why should you need get your head around what I believe in, I thought I made my views above quite clear? I am not here to convert, convince or decree my faith to anyone, only to partake in Q&A with reasonable debate. Your opening gambit included my faith, so in some respects I joined this thread to defend myself against your global viewpoint.
I haven�t gone into that post, because frankly I cannot be arsed. I watched the Louis Theroux programme with these people on, and wished to opine from my own perspective.
because like you said you are here to defend your faith, and as i have shown this group have just as much right as you to claim that they are christians. I am trying to be accepting of your faith but cannot allow myself to do that when there are pople out there like the ones mentioned originally who can claim with as much right as you of their guaranteed place in heaven where they will actually be rewarded for what they are doing now.
Octavius, you're missing the point. Of course I don't think what you think about homosexuals will make any difference to whether you go to heaven; I'm an atheist. It's axiomatic.
The point all through this discussion is whether it is reasonable to say, 'these Landsdown Baptist halfwits are not Christians'. I think their vile opinions directly stem from their Christianity, and moreover there's plenty of verses in the bible that specifically support their view, therefore to dissassociate them from Christianity merely because most Christians would rightly regard them as nutcases is to be disingenous.
The point all through this discussion is whether it is reasonable to say, 'these Landsdown Baptist halfwits are not Christians'. I think their vile opinions directly stem from their Christianity, and moreover there's plenty of verses in the bible that specifically support their view, therefore to dissassociate them from Christianity merely because most Christians would rightly regard them as nutcases is to be disingenous.
Of course that is your opinion.
My opinion is that their hatred stems from a general hatred for modern society � as I said above. It is a shame that they use the Bible to spread their hate and they are being heard, but of course if they didn�t use the Bible, then perhaps they would use their own inbred intolerance and homophobic hang ups to denounce homosexuality in the same way that many atheists do. With or without the Bible, these people will still see the world in the way they do.
I wasn�t really debating their claim to be Christian, only that with the opening line of the question I felt the need to state that not ALL Christians share their bigotry. It seems that many people think we are all the same, a bit like saying that all English people are exactly the same really.
My opinion is that their hatred stems from a general hatred for modern society � as I said above. It is a shame that they use the Bible to spread their hate and they are being heard, but of course if they didn�t use the Bible, then perhaps they would use their own inbred intolerance and homophobic hang ups to denounce homosexuality in the same way that many atheists do. With or without the Bible, these people will still see the world in the way they do.
I wasn�t really debating their claim to be Christian, only that with the opening line of the question I felt the need to state that not ALL Christians share their bigotry. It seems that many people think we are all the same, a bit like saying that all English people are exactly the same really.
Well, my opinion is backed up by the fact that the book that underpins your religion is unquestionably homophobic. It's not like they inserted the nasty bits that they use to justify their behaviour. It's in there.
If you don't mind me saying so (and I expect you will object), yours comes across as primarily motivated by not wanting to be associated with such fistmagnets.
If you don't mind me saying so (and I expect you will object), yours comes across as primarily motivated by not wanting to be associated with such fistmagnets.
Homosexuality falls into the same category as thieving, lying, selfishness, lewdness, unfathfulness, or any other activity that falls into the category that marks us out as being fallen short of Gods' perfection.
The christian response to sin is to try to not sin, and not to judge the sinner,
Love the sinner, hate the sin.
The people described in the post link were not acting in a christian way.
Anybody can call themself a christian, but the proof of the pudding ....... ?
The christian response to sin is to try to not sin, and not to judge the sinner,
Love the sinner, hate the sin.
The people described in the post link were not acting in a christian way.
Anybody can call themself a christian, but the proof of the pudding ....... ?
Which religion you follow or which book you recite is merely a distraction from the central issue which provides the illusion on which they all rely. The attempt to rewrite reality by suggesting that a God is the author of all things and that you are God's spokes person is tantamount to issuing a virtual license to anyone who so chooses to declare that the God they created in their own image is the one true God whose disobedience is your ticket to hell and that their version of reality requires no more proof or justification for purporting its existence or demanding your compliance to its laws than does your own.
Whichever God one chooses to believe in, turning away from reason in this manner constitutes a voluntary forfeiture of the justification for your existence and your actions that only reality can substantiate. Belief in God does not justify the inexcusable actions of other believers however it does severely limit your means to present a reasonable case against an oppressor whose arguments are no less valid than your own.
Anyone who asserts that God exists as anything more than a misguided belief is intellectually culpable and morally complicit with the actions of any and every one who claims their actions are carried out for the glory, honour and in the name of God, their particular religion or interpretation of their chosen �Holy� texts notwithstanding. Attempting to rewrite reality comes at great peril for which none guilty of this egregious affront to reason can rightfully seek absolution or claim any exemption other than the one they bestowed on themselves, that their own belief in God does not constitute an exodus from a rational view of existence.
Whichever God one chooses to believe in, turning away from reason in this manner constitutes a voluntary forfeiture of the justification for your existence and your actions that only reality can substantiate. Belief in God does not justify the inexcusable actions of other believers however it does severely limit your means to present a reasonable case against an oppressor whose arguments are no less valid than your own.
Anyone who asserts that God exists as anything more than a misguided belief is intellectually culpable and morally complicit with the actions of any and every one who claims their actions are carried out for the glory, honour and in the name of God, their particular religion or interpretation of their chosen �Holy� texts notwithstanding. Attempting to rewrite reality comes at great peril for which none guilty of this egregious affront to reason can rightfully seek absolution or claim any exemption other than the one they bestowed on themselves, that their own belief in God does not constitute an exodus from a rational view of existence.
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