All the evil in the world is the fault of the atheists

[annavc]

according to the Pope.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith /article2977564.ece

Yet another example of history being rewritten. I guess my question is, will there ever be a time when we are just allowed to believe what we believe and not be told we're murders etc simply because we choose to believe in logic and common sense?

[SlackAlice]

Well, he would say that, he's biased!

[adamhornsby]

Im not sure us atheists are the main cause. Just look at all these Muslims blowing themselves up. Its not us atheists causing the problems, its the people who are religious who are causing them

[jno]

you're allowed to believe what you want to believe right now, annavc. The pope has no authority over you. Even if you were a devout catholic you could still behave as you wanted - like all those catholics who've used contraception for decades.

[jake-the-peg]

I wonder if he's going to turn up saying that the next time there's a "priest-and-a-choirboy" scandal.


The arrogance is quite breathtaking

[Ethel]

Having read your link, I cannot find your headline quote. Where does the Pope say that?

He said 'Atheism has led to some of the �greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice� known to mankind'

And that quote is obviously true - World Wars I and II had nothing to do with religion, as examples.

That is significantly different to 'all the evil in the world'. But of course, people see what they wish to see, don't they?

[jake-the-peg]

Whoa hold the logic train!

How does the fact that WWI and WWII were not religious wars make them obviouslythe fault of athiests?

false dichotomy-city!

[123everton]

Nazism was an atheist doctrine it's largely described as neo-Darwinist(ism) in it's doctrine in so much that it centred on natural selection through survival of the fittest and racial screening so on and so on (I could go for a while about it) but the reality is only a fool would blame Darwin for mainiacal racist doctrines (apartheid, Nazism) similarly it's equally unfair to blame religion for the deeds of evil people.
Any belief or any doctrine formulated out of any work or hypothesis is open to interpretation and distortion to suit the ends of any perjurer. To kill Jews and Slavs because thy're untermenschen is no different in essence to muslims killing kuffars because they're infidels, or denying rights to blacks (because they're uncivilised) whilst allowing some rights to Asians and Coloureds (because they're more advanced) all murderers are wicked whatever reason they claim to do it, whatever reasoning they espouse is usually a cop out. They did it because they wanted too, it fitted their ends and so they justified it to their means.

[Octavius]

You don�t seem to have read the whole article. I imagine you are an atheist and will interpret any opinion of the Pope whichever way you would see it before he even said it, so your view hasn�t changed but you bemoan that it has? It is a critique of Marx and science which can provide marvels and demons (medicine and nuclear bombs). I doubt he is the first, last or only person to have a view like that.

[brionon]

But Moses butchered a whole people ,babies and all at the bequest of God-except for the virgins of marriagable age who he was allowed to keep for his own USE.
God love 'im.

[Octavius]

And so did Herod, Julius Caesar, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot and Hitler.

Are we playing ping pong now?

[WaldoMcFroog]

There's a big difference between saying atheism has lead to the (e.g.) First World War and saying some wars (e.g.) First World War have nothing to do with religion, Ethel, and I don't think even the most ardent atheist would be so foolish as to blame all evil in the world on religion (Richard Dawkins is on record as decidely miffed at the title Channel 4 used for his anti-religion programme; 'The Root of all Evil', before anyone mentions that!)

One statement implies causality. It's interesting that the Pope has invoked this argument though, simply because it's so terribly lazy. We've done this one many times before, but any attempt to imply that the autrocities of Stalinism proceed from atheism - a non-position - rather than from totalitarianism - an idiology -seems rather weak.

It's particularly lame given that a certain institution not that long ago half-apologised for its lack of condemnation of Nazism...

[Ethel]

My examples of WWI and WWII are good examples of evil not driven by religion, in a response to the earlier post re Muslim extremists.

The Nazi party were not claiming to be acting in the name of any god.

My main contention here is that the opening poster has seriously misquoted and misintepreted the words of the Pope.

Even if the Pope had said all evil is the work of atheists, that is not the same as saying all atheists are evil, which is how annavc has interpreted it.

[annavc]

Octavious I have read the whole article, I've also read the article in the Telegraph, on the BBC news site, and on three other news sites including Reuters.

Yes I am an athiest - so what? The point I was trying to make is that I am so utterly sick and tired of religious apologists attempting to rewrite history to make out that christians are nothing but peace-loving, non-violent saints when there are endless examples of the exact opposite. I know there are many many christians who are peace-loving and non-violent but equally there many many athiests who are the same. What the Pope is saying is no different from the tv evangelists in the US who blamed hurricane Katriana on the "non-believers".

People are people - some are good, some are not - believe in a god has nothing to do with it. What I object to is being told that because I do not believe in a god of any kind that I therefore must have no morals, not know right from wrong, have no compunction about commiting crimes and have no hope and nothing to live for.

[Octavius]

Atheistic political ideologies (such as Marxism and Nazism) resulted in almost 140 million deaths in the 20th Century, probably more than all of the other wars in the history of mankind put together.

As Ethel has said, many Christians would not presume to suggest that atheism is war mongering evil in the same way that Christianity and Islam are by atheists.

[annavc]

Ethel saying "The Nazi party were not claiming to be acting in the name of any god" as a reason to blame the war on atheism is ridiculous. The nazi party also never claimed to acting in the name of a believe in no god. Just because god was not mentioned does not mean the nazis were waging war for the cause of atheism". It simply wasn't a factor - that is not the same thing. Waldo makes this point much more succinctly than I can.

As for your assertion that I have misinterpreted the article - I have not - I am simply expressing a gut reaction to the latest in a long line of similar viewpoints expressed by religious leaders.

[Octavius]

Why does everyone put an extra o in my name??

annavc, I would reiterate what jno has said above. You don�t believe in God, you don�t recognise the authority of the Pope, yet you take it all to heart and seem to hang on every word. Does his rejection of your disbelief fill you with such dread? Do you feel the same when some Ayatollah somewhere calls you an infidel?

[123everton]

If you're an atheist then why should you care what the Pope thinks? He is obviously as biased towards creationism as you are to atheism. As Octavius said "shall we play ping pong" to say atheism is better than creationism bcause of blah blah blah, is lame.
Morality in itself is a subjective assessment not an objective appraisal. Anyone who clams to be a moral person is by definition a hypocrite (I lay no claim to a superior morality).
Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Shintu are all EQUALLY valid belief systems as atheism. It's how you express that belief that causes problems, when people can accept their differnces with a shrug and a cup of tea the world will be a better place.
And that is the point I hope you're trying to emphasise.

[Ethel]

annavc - you have seriously misquoted the Pope.

It is fine to interpret the article as you see fit,and have a gut reaction, but your headline is a misquote. He simply did not say that in that article.

If you are going to quote people, please be accurate.

[annavc]

Octavius I don't "hang on every word" of what the pope or any other religious person says but I do get angry when they dismiss my way of life simply because I don't believe what they believe - why should it matter to them that I or anyone else is an atheist?

I don't care what anyone believes - I have no problem with people who believe in a god, what I have a problem with is when those people think they have a right to denigrate my way of life because I don't believe what they believe.

You actually seem to be completely misunderstanding the point of my question. Presumably you as a believer would get annoyed/irritated/irked (whatever word you want to use) if someone said to you "you believe in god therefore you are too stupid to know that killing someone is wrong" - equally as a "non-believer" I get annoyed when someone says to me "you don't believe in god therefore you must have no morals, be evil and have nothing stopping you from killing anyone comes across your path". It is simply ridiculous put either way and yes it irritates me - if that irritates you then my apologies!

[annavc]

123everton that is entirely my point - why can't people just believe whatever they want to believe without being ridiculed, insulted, and told they are the cause of the world's problems. I don't give a damn what anyone believes and don't spend my days trying to convert people and telling them what they believe is wrong and as a result I don't see why anyone whether jo bloggs or the pope has a right to tell me that what I believe is wrong.

My reaction to this article is a gut reaction after a week of being preached at by someone at my work who has just discovered (not from me) that I am an atheist. Today he used what the pope said as the latest in a long line of examples which he thinks will make me suddenly think "oops maybe i should go to church because he thinks i'm evil". Maybe if the pope and all the many others like him didn't make statements like this then this idiot would find less justification for harrassing me and others.