Am I a Christian?

[naomi24]

Following the Women in Church thread, it occurred to me that, although I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe that Jesus was anything other than a man, I've been fighting in his corner far more than the Christians here ever do. The Women in Church thread dealt mainly with the teachings of St Paul, to which all Christians appear to adhere, but one thing that Jesus warned against was false prophets - and I believe St Paul was the first of thousands - and not only the first, but clearly the most influential. Jesus message was simple - 'love one another - and therefore my question is would he really have wanted the opulence of St Peter's in Rome, and other churches - or the pope and the priests setting themselves above the rest of mankind and parading in their wonderful garb? Would he really have wanted the ceremony and dogma? Wasn't Jesus' message simple, and is Christianity, as we know it, really what he intended? Personally, I think not. In fact, as a devout Jew, I think Jesus would have been appalled by what has grown up in his name.

[naomi24]

Mib Sadly these truths fall upon deaf ears - or in the case of AB, blind eyes.

[Pesk]

I'm contributing a bit late here - only just read all the answers. I am a Christian and not extreme in my views. I care not a jot whether the world is 5000 years old or 5 billion. The love that is central to my beliefs means I constantly feel loved by God. This love is totally undeserved and not earned. Jesus came to save all mankind - not just Christians. I 've no idea if Jesus wanted to found a new religion. He certainly wanted to change things. People are very good at putting themseves at the centre. Jesus wants God at the centre.
What about the work of the Holy Spirit? The disciples changed on that Pentecost morning from ineffective to dynamic in a moment. That's when the "new church" got going. Power corrupts and I suppose over the the following 2 thousand years mankind managed to corrupt and mess up using the banner of religion to justify all sorts of evils. I hang on to the tennet that "Christianity isn't the answer but Christ is"

[naomi24]

Pesk You have no idea if Jesus wanted to found a new religion, but in my opinion the answer to that ought to be the most relevant issue to a Christian. It appears, from the responses on this thread, that Christians feel it unimportant to try to understand what Jesus really intended, since the answer would expose St Paul as a charlatan, and that would mean acknowleging that Christianity is fabricated. You may be correct in saying Jesus wanted to change things - but only inasmuch as he wanted Jews to be better Jews.

[Pesk]

Jesus wanted the jewish nation to accept him as the messiah they had been waiting for. I suppose if I had been alive then as a jew, I hope I would have accepted him as messiah and become a better jew. I have friends who are messianic jews and I think that's probably the best. Paul was the first missionary to the gentiles along with others who promoted Jesus's message. What grew out of that was new compared with what was around at the time. What I belong to now is something that has evolved out of that unfortunately along with all the man made stuff. I don't know what's going to happen as Christianity gets a really bad press. Generally, the media are quick to portray christianity as naff. Having said that. the "Liverpool Nativity" was fantastsic last night. I hate to think what Jesus thinks of "his new religion". I will be judged by what I do and not what others do.

[mibn2cweus]

Naomi, I 'hear' yah, that is, I see what your 'sayin'. <"?

[naomi24]

Pesk Another definite statement. "Jesus wanted the Jewish nation to accept him as ther messiah they had been waiting for." Why do you say that?

St Paul didn't promote Jesus' message - St Paul promoted his own message.

Mib So please one or two here see what I'm saying. :o)

[Pesk]

Every time I read the gospels I hear Jesus saying many times he is fullfuilling the messianic prophecies. I've just read today about John the baptist declaring telling everyone to get ready for the one you have been expecting. Jesus declared himself as "the one" many times and he criticised the people who wouldn't accept him. His message was just for the jews until the gentiles got themselves in on the act. He wasnted the jewish nation to be a lamp to light the way for others.

[naomi24]

Pesk I see Jesus asking other people who they think he is, but I don't see him confirming their responses. Additionally, when Pilate asked him if was indeed the King of the Jews, his response was 'You say that I am', or words to that effect, and I take that to mean "I didn't say that, you did". (Incidentally, I have to wonder who actually recorded the trial).

Another thought. The Jews were expecting a Messiah who would be a militant political leader, and the Romans would surely have been on their guard against such a character - and yet once they had arrested Jesus, Pilate found no fault in him and asked the Jews if he should release him. Does that make any sense? As has already been discussed on this thread, since the gospels were written long after the event, there are no eye witnesses, and there is no reliable evidence to support anything they contain.

(My apologies - my computer keys are sticking a bit - and throwing up the odd typo here and there. Perhaps I should check more closely before pressing 'submit'!!).

[whiffey]

naomi, the issue of Pilate is very interesting. I find it very emotional and touching, but I do also see that he might have been touched by Jesus, a man who had been flogged all night and was now presented for judgement. Crucify him !!!

It's all fairy tale of course......

To answer your earlier question, I hate the god of the old testament, Joshua, slaughter, all that sort of thing. But I do focus in on the Jesus of the gospels.

[naomi24]

Whiffey But the whole story is very emotional and touching, isn't it? And isn't that what it's intended to be? Going by your post, immediately you think of Pilate you think of the suffering that Jesus endured - and I truly can cry buckets watching something like 'Jesus of Nazareth'. The whole story plays with the human heartstrings. Take the Christmas account, for example. One gospel tells of Jesus being born in a stable, another tells of him being born in a house - but which one are we taught? The lowly stable of course, because the more vulnerable we're made to believe the child, and then the man, is, the more sympathy we have for him. We have little representations of the stable, complete with the holy family, wise men, shepherds, camels and lambs, which, along with all the other decorations, we haul out of the loft at Christmas, but I don't know anyone who has a little representation of a house taking in pride of place amongst the Christmas baubles. The whole story is constructed to play havoc with our emotions. Who, upon reading the story of Jesus doesn't feel sorry for him? That's what it's all about. Add to that the myth of a loving god, the sweet virgin mother, the suffering, the magical resurrection, the promise of eternal life, and the threat of eternal damnation, and there you have it. Hooked!! And why? Because you are human, you possess human emotions and you are afraid of a God who, going on his track record, most certainly has no compassion for the human race, who isn't almighty, and who does nothing whatsoever to relieve the suffering of mankind. In short, this God doesn't exist. It's a lie. When I think about Jesus - and I do think he existed - I see him as a devout Jewish rabbi who probably had the very best of intentions. I have no problem with anyone following him, but what came after is a complete and utter travesty.

[naomi24]

Whiffey I can't see how you rationalise your hatred of the God of the Old Testament with your Christian belief, but I'd be interested to hear more.