satan

[Le Chat]

In a previous question posed by Stevie1time, which referred to selling one's soul to the devil........it got me wondering. In his answer to the post, Teddio tells us that Lucifer was only second in line to God, higher than angels etc etc.
In a previous question posed by Stevie1time, which referred to selling one's soul to the devil........it got me wondering. In his answer to the post, Teddio tells us that Lucifer was only second in line to God, higher than angels etc etc.
If this was so, then why did he go 'bad' ? If it is so fantastic, wonderful and beautiful in heaven, why would Lucifer want to throw a spanner in the works?
Christians spend all their earthly life trying to ensure their place in heaven for all the reasons above, so what was it about heaven that wasn't 'ultimate' enough for Lucifer?

[luna-tic]

Why is it that people who are not Bible believers or readers have to be saved?
From what?
Do you think you could be a good, kind, caring and loving person without the biblical God or Bible?
It's always worth a try.
I think many believers consciences have been infiltrated to the degree that they're fearful of themselves if they don't keep reading.
It's like a lottery ticket holder who's afraid of changing their numbers for fear of losing any draw in the future.
Why should we blame ourselves for something we haven't done but God has?

[naomi24]

Newsdesk I look at the universe and at the power of nature, so why would I need man to teach me - or a book written by men, and edited time and time again by men - to learn from? The credo of the Christian church was decided upon by man, and that is historical fact, so where does your God come in to that? Yes, I do look at the stars, but you're mistaken. I don't attend seances, and neither do I take part in Druid rituals. How small-minded you are. You really have no conception of anything greater than your belief, do you? Here we have the whole world before us, and all the knowledge and wonders contained within it, but you're constrained by this nonsensical, antiquated, superstition. No doubt you would tell me that God made the heavens simply for us here on earth, but if that's true, I have to wonder why he made suns and planets that are not visible from earth. What nonsense. Luna has hit the nail on the head. The only reason you champion this God is because you're afraid. The first rule is "Do as I say or be damned", isn't it? You're utterly selfish. Saving your own soul is your main concern, isn't it? But have you considered all those jungle tribes who have never heard of your God, who just happen to be good and loving people? What about them? What happened to Jesus' fundamental message to us, to love one another? Even though that's the rule I'd rather live by, it's certainly been long forgotten by the Christian church. You don't naturally love your God - he has bullied you into believing that terrible things await unless you believe in him, and you're simply afraid for your own skin. You don't realise it, but the person you're really following is St Paul - a man who never knew Jesus, who never heard him speak, and who has done Jesus a great disservice. Jesus would be appalled b by your beliefs.

....cont

[naomi24]

cont....

I noticed on another thread you said you had an open mind on everything. Not strictly true was it?!!

Thank you for the thought, but I really don't need you to be there for me, newsdesk - heaven(?) forbid!!

Tastymorsel, If, as you say, God gave us choices, bearing in mind he is reputed to be omniscient, wouldn't that have been a complete waste of time? He would have known exactly the choices we would make before we made them, so why bother? He surely is a joker, isn't he? You obviously haven't been following this thread as clearly as you think you have. Yes, I do believe there is something bigger than us, but it isn't the biblical God. Have you studied the bible sufficiently to know what sort of creature he was?

And incidentally, someone from the future would not believe you either, since your psyche is embedded in dark ages.

[Theland]

Naomi - The ones with their psyche embedded in the dark ages, the seventh century to be exact, are called, "muslims."
But once again you are going to intrigue people, if you have broadly stated what you believe, without giving the reasons why you believe as you do?
That is not an unreasonable request, and you never know, you may gain a convert or two?

[naomi24]

Oh, Theland, you do make me laugh. Why would I want to encourage converts? Converts to what? I don't have a religion.

OK, why do I believe what I believe? It's quite simple. I've seen nature in all its glory, and in all its terrible power, so I have no doubt it exists. I look at the night sky and know that I'm seeing only a very minute fraction of what is really there. Nature is unimaginably vast - and it's unstoppable. Even if we blow this earth to smithereens, nature will survive.

Next, I believe that we will only achieve peace on this planet if men cease to be arrogant and egotistical - especially when it comes to religion - and although, since we're human and it's not always possible to love our fellow man as we should, I believe that we at least ought to try to respect and help each other. If everyone did that, there would be no insurmountable problems in this world, and that's the tenet I try to live by.

....cont

[naomi24]

As for spirituality, I quite like this definition. A sense of meaning and purpose, a sense of self and of relationship with 'that which is greater than self - ie nature. Of course, it's a personal thing, but when I have a problem, I like to sit alone and watch the sea, or gaze at the stars, and by doing that (without wishing to sound 'cheesey'), I find peace in my spirit and love in my heart. The magnificence of nature helps me to think things through clearly, and to work things out. It settles my soul. Spirituality, like love, comes from inside, and no man, and no book can teach it.
And speaking of the soul, as you know, my personal experiences lead me to believe the spirit survives death. I don't think there is a specific 'home' for the soul after death, and I don't believe in your concept of heaven or hell, but like the mortal body, I believe the soul is a part of nature and it remains a part of nature. I sincerely hope that some day science will be able to prove the existence of the soul.

cont....

[naomi24]

And God? God isn't a 'he', God is an indefinable 'it' that encompasses the whole universe. And before you say, "Well this is my God you're talking about", no, it isn't. It isn't any God that was ever alleged to have spoken to man, or that ever tried to influence man. This God is the complete spirit of nature. It has no interest in mankind, it has no wish to be worshipped, it imposes no rules on mankind, and there is no dire threat of punishment. If you want to say (which I know you will) "Ah, well we have to have a punishment to fit the crime", or words to that effect, the only punishment I believe we suffer is that which our own consciences impose upon us - and our souls will carry that conscience with them. There's nothing worse than a bad conscience. Peace of mind is worth everything.

When I listen to Christians banging on about the biblical God, and hell, and punishment, and sin, and Satan, I truly pity them. How screwed up and confused their minds are. They spend their lives in fear of dying just in case they aren't shipped off to the right place - and it's all created by man, and taught by man. When someone like newsdesk (who I'm sure hasn't read the bible) tells me that through no fault of my own, I probably acted in a fashion not in keeping with God's teachings, and not to blame myself, whilst I have to laugh, I can't help feeling sorry for him. I wonder what fashion he believes I acted in? Since he knows very little about me, the mind boggles! How ridiculously arrogant manufactured religion makes a man. Poor newsdesk. People of all religions think they have the right answer, but they can't all be right, can they?

[Whickerman]

You claim it for your God, Newsdesk, others for theirs.

You may be right, but I strongly feel you may not be. Your beliefs are your business, and i have none questioning them.

Have the same respect for Naomi.

As to the original question, Satan and Lucifer are not one and the same - see here for the communion of demons, per Abramelin the Mage.

http://members.tripod.com/~Overman666/abra.htm l

[jno]

'Belzebud', Whickerman? Doesn't mention his brother Bud Lite, I notice.

[naomi24]

Newsdesk Oh, so now, according to you, your God has brought me in from the darkness? A few posts ago you were telling me I am a disciple of the Devil, and that I will pay the price for my irreligious views. Do you actually know what you're talking about? You haven't answered my previous questions, so perhaps you'll have the courtesy to answer this. May I ask where you gathered your information on your God? Have you read the bible in its entirety, and researched the subject, or are you simply going on hearsay? I strongly suspect the latter.

Quite simply, Newsdesk, I've studied the reports of your God, and I have very specific views on him, which I won't go into here, but I can tell you that he most definitely is not my God. I told you, read Leviticus, and then tell me that you and he think the same.

Thanks Whicker.

[Theland]

Naomi - Newsdesk is right in one respect, you worship the creation rather than the Creator. To deny the existence of the Creator, is simply to deny the laws of physics which, if you put your, "Cause And Effect," head on, demand a cause for all of the wondrous stars you can observe, and, to get a bit airy fairy, a reason for us being here.
Your god with a little gee sounds like he has alzheimers, and is totally unaware of what he has done, where he is, or what day it is. A bit like my boss in fact, but probably a bit less of a pain in the butt.

[naomi24]

Good morning Theland, with all due respect (as usual) what utter rubbish. Newsdesk isn't right at all - I don't 'worship' anything. I simply appreciate the magnitude of nature. I don't know how the universe began - neither does anyone else - but I'm not so arrogant to declare, as you do, that I know the answers. One thing I do know, though, is that I would never attribute any of it to your God. I do believe the bible to be, basically, an historical document, and my question is, who exactly was this God? Whoever he was (and he hasn't been around, at least physically, for a very long time) he displayed all the worst faults of mankind, he whizzed around in flying machines, and, according to you, he still expects accolades for all the good in the world, but will not accept responsibility for the bad. Take the Tsunami. Why? Ok, for argument's sake, you could say that we may be fundamentally responsible for that with our atom bombs, etc, but what about all the natural disasters that occurred before atom bombs? Nature, Theland, nature. (Ooo, I felt a bit like Hilda Ogden then - "Woman, Stanley, Woman").

As for all the stars we observe, in fact we observe very few. You say your God made the heavens to enable us to tell the seasons - oh, and to glorify himself (naturally! Mustn't forget that bit!). Why, then, did he make stars, and whole galaxies, in fact, which aren't visible from earth, even now, with all our technology? And why are new stars, which we can't see, still being formed? Oh, I know, when something that doesn't quite gel raises its head, you say we mustn't question - God works in mysterious ways. Whichever way we turn, this guy has a get out clause - and always set up for him by man. Theland, it's nonsense.

continued....

[naomi24]

....continued

I believe there is some truth in most ancient tales, but you don't seek the truth in the bible, even though it's plain to see. You just blindly believe that which you want to believe - and ignore the bits you don't like. You say you don't understand my thoughts, and I don't believe you ever will, because your religion has made you too afraid to allow your mind to expand beyond the idea of something resembling a man, sitting in heaven smiling benignly upon us - or, if we fail to meet his expectations (which he would be aware of before we're born), condemning us to hell. I find it all so very sad.

[luna-tic]

Mmm....Delusions of religious grandeur.
Have you bathed in the glorious light from above yet?
Some people have been touched and some still are.