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One for the Atheists
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I've been meaning to ask this question for a long time - and since my husband is now watching the rugby he recorded earlier today (yawn), now seems to be a good time.
I don't believe in the biblical God (probably a well-known fact on R&S by now). However, when I visit churches anywhere in the world (strangely enough with the exception of St Peter's in Rome), I detect a certain air, a certain atmosphere, of something indefinably spiritual. To me, there seems to be a pervading sense of peace and tranquility in almost all churches - even ruined ones - but why? I've asked myself this many times, and have yet to come up with a logical, rational, or satisfactory answer. So .... my question to atheists is, do you experience the same, and if so, to what do you attribute it? And, despite your athiestic leanings, and your pre-disposition to damning anything even remotely connected to religion, a completely soul(?)-searchingly honest answer would be very much appreciated.
I don't believe in the biblical God (probably a well-known fact on R&S by now). However, when I visit churches anywhere in the world (strangely enough with the exception of St Peter's in Rome), I detect a certain air, a certain atmosphere, of something indefinably spiritual. To me, there seems to be a pervading sense of peace and tranquility in almost all churches - even ruined ones - but why? I've asked myself this many times, and have yet to come up with a logical, rational, or satisfactory answer. So .... my question to atheists is, do you experience the same, and if so, to what do you attribute it? And, despite your athiestic leanings, and your pre-disposition to damning anything even remotely connected to religion, a completely soul(?)-searchingly honest answer would be very much appreciated.
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Hello again naomi
I don't consider myself an atheist (agnostic possibly) but I do know what you mean. I think it's because there is such a lot of history in these places and they are generally so quiet and peaceful. There is a certain aura surrounding them.
I heard something on the radio the other day about praying and it said that everyone prays, even an atheist. Do atheists ever find themselves saying something like "Please God ..."?
Sorry - not trying to hijack your thread!
I don't consider myself an atheist (agnostic possibly) but I do know what you mean. I think it's because there is such a lot of history in these places and they are generally so quiet and peaceful. There is a certain aura surrounding them.
I heard something on the radio the other day about praying and it said that everyone prays, even an atheist. Do atheists ever find themselves saying something like "Please God ..."?
Sorry - not trying to hijack your thread!
I can't answer you question to its fullest as I am not an atheist and consider myself to have strong beliefs, but I have also visited many churches throughout the world and I have always found the same spiritual atmosphere you mention, but like yourself, I was, sadly, not moved spiritually when I visited St Peters; to me the Vatican just reeked of corruption and deceit, and St Peter's was the epitome of greed and wealth. However, there were other, hidden and less pretentious churches that left me in no doubt that there was a reality greater than myself.
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I wonder if the peace and tranquility has always been there, always around the place before the buildings?
Sorry Naomi, I'm not an atheist either but you know what I believe.
Why does it affect some people and not others, religious or not?
Mmm..ley lines maybe that channels energy through certain people???
So many questions.
Sorry Naomi, I'm not an atheist either but you know what I believe.
Why does it affect some people and not others, religious or not?
Mmm..ley lines maybe that channels energy through certain people???
So many questions.
I was thinking about ley lines before I read Lunas response. Honestly.
So, here are my thoughts.
There is a spiritual realm. We are all sensitive to it, as it manifests itself in different ways to different people.
Women are generally more spiritually sensitive than men, Naomi and my wife being typical examples of this. (In Genesis, Eve was more sensitive to the serpent than Adam, so the Bible recognises this fact, here and elsewhere.)
Lyall Watson, in his books, "Supernature," "Beyond Supernature," (I think it was called), and, "The Romeo Error," discusses these aspects of human sensitivity and is convinced that it is a natural, or rather supernatural, ie 'spiritual', part of our makeup.
Watson is not as far as I am aware, a Christian.
Mind bending psychedelic drugs can enhance this sensitivity, but in negative ways. DANGER BEWARE!
I understand that more women than men attend churches, further proof of female spiritual sensitivity.
There are more forces in the universe than our five windows on the world can detect.
So, here are my thoughts.
There is a spiritual realm. We are all sensitive to it, as it manifests itself in different ways to different people.
Women are generally more spiritually sensitive than men, Naomi and my wife being typical examples of this. (In Genesis, Eve was more sensitive to the serpent than Adam, so the Bible recognises this fact, here and elsewhere.)
Lyall Watson, in his books, "Supernature," "Beyond Supernature," (I think it was called), and, "The Romeo Error," discusses these aspects of human sensitivity and is convinced that it is a natural, or rather supernatural, ie 'spiritual', part of our makeup.
Watson is not as far as I am aware, a Christian.
Mind bending psychedelic drugs can enhance this sensitivity, but in negative ways. DANGER BEWARE!
I understand that more women than men attend churches, further proof of female spiritual sensitivity.
There are more forces in the universe than our five windows on the world can detect.
I'm an athiest, and, yes I have been in churches/cathedrals and felt a sense of peace. For me, I would say that it comes from the size and impressiveness of the building, the quietness, and as others have said, the sense of history.
I have never felt that this increases the chance of there being a God, either loving or otherwise.
I also often think of the plight of some of the citizens at the time these impressive buildings were built. Where some of them starving and destitute while huges sums of money were spend to please the rich people's loving god ?
I have never felt that this increases the chance of there being a God, either loving or otherwise.
I also often think of the plight of some of the citizens at the time these impressive buildings were built. Where some of them starving and destitute while huges sums of money were spend to please the rich people's loving god ?
I haven't actually been in any new, purpose built churches, and I wonder if the same undeniable atmosphere is created there.
I have noticed that the positioning and design of these older churches appear to have always been well thought out and I think this, together with the various, and again well thought out building materials, add to the ambiance. The aromas from past and present, which are now the very essence of these buildings, play a huge part too. Churches satisfy all our senses i.e. visual, sound, smell, etc in a way that we do not experience often. However, even if it goes someway to explaining certain aspects I believe it only creates the serene setting for something much bigger.
I have noticed that the positioning and design of these older churches appear to have always been well thought out and I think this, together with the various, and again well thought out building materials, add to the ambiance. The aromas from past and present, which are now the very essence of these buildings, play a huge part too. Churches satisfy all our senses i.e. visual, sound, smell, etc in a way that we do not experience often. However, even if it goes someway to explaining certain aspects I believe it only creates the serene setting for something much bigger.
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I think many religious buildings are extremely impressive achievements of architecture, and I certainly find the fact that they were build using such comparitively primitive means is remarkable.
I even respect the fact that the builders were inspired to build these things by their religious beliefs.
Many churches are quiet places. It would be inappropriate to should and yell and swear in them, and this is instilled in most of us from quite a young age. Baptist churches, of course, like a bit of shouting. Not sure about the swearing.
The Baha'i temple in Delhi is a particularly impressive achievement.
Oh, and I agree about St Peters in Rome. There's something very wrong about the ostentatious display of wealth. It's like Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch, but without the taste-control.
I even respect the fact that the builders were inspired to build these things by their religious beliefs.
Many churches are quiet places. It would be inappropriate to should and yell and swear in them, and this is instilled in most of us from quite a young age. Baptist churches, of course, like a bit of shouting. Not sure about the swearing.
The Baha'i temple in Delhi is a particularly impressive achievement.
Oh, and I agree about St Peters in Rome. There's something very wrong about the ostentatious display of wealth. It's like Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch, but without the taste-control.
The odd thing is I don't experience the same atmosphere in synagogues, and mosques, which are often vast, ornate and beautifully designed, don't have the same effect either. Neither do Buddhist and Hindu temples, despite their often very great age (although of course, they are rather garish, and the priests do often bang drums which can make them very noisy places and not exactly conducive to peaceful contemplation).
Love the description of St Peter's, Waldo. That's just about right. Appalling isn't it? A spectacle to behold indeed!!
Love the description of St Peter's, Waldo. That's just about right. Appalling isn't it? A spectacle to behold indeed!!
St. Peter's in Rome is ostentatious and the expenditure from the indulgence payments is obvious. It feels about as spiritual as a kebab shop on a Friday night. Why does Pope Benedict allow the lightning conductor to remain on the dome of St. Peters? God is unlikely to strike down the holiest place on the planet. The Cathedral of Christ the King in Liverpool similarly leaves me cold as do the modern Christian churches (ca. 1960s)
The old churches and cathedrals are amazing feats of engineering but I don't find them particularly spiritual. I adore the Alhambra from an engineering and artistic perspective but have never experienced a feeling of peace or tranquillity. Catholic churches should have the edge since they have been consecrated and contain the "True Presence".
Natural phenomena such as the Aurora Borealis and the constellation Orion in the winter sky are, when observed, truly awe-inspiring and certainly spiritual experiemces. Ask anyone who has seen a total eclipse of the Sun.
The old churches and cathedrals are amazing feats of engineering but I don't find them particularly spiritual. I adore the Alhambra from an engineering and artistic perspective but have never experienced a feeling of peace or tranquillity. Catholic churches should have the edge since they have been consecrated and contain the "True Presence".
Natural phenomena such as the Aurora Borealis and the constellation Orion in the winter sky are, when observed, truly awe-inspiring and certainly spiritual experiemces. Ask anyone who has seen a total eclipse of the Sun.
I would have said that too China, but the same atmosphere doesn't exist for me in other, more ancient, 'holy' places. Perhaps it's something to do with our upbringing. I hate to say it, but maybe those of us who feel this atmosphere only in churches have been brainwashed to a degree. It would be interesting to know if people brought up in other religions experience an 'atmosphere' only in their particular places of worship.
Lonnie and Mani - are you there? What do you say?
Teddio, a kebab shop on a Friday night! How funny! And you've made a very good point about the lightening conductors. Not much faith there, clearly! I wonder how much St Peter's and the Vatican is all worth in money terms? An unbelievably obscene amount, no doubt.
In the spirituality stakes, the wonders of nature most certainly far outstrip St Peter's, and anything else, every time though, so I'm with you there.
Lonnie and Mani - are you there? What do you say?
Teddio, a kebab shop on a Friday night! How funny! And you've made a very good point about the lightening conductors. Not much faith there, clearly! I wonder how much St Peter's and the Vatican is all worth in money terms? An unbelievably obscene amount, no doubt.
In the spirituality stakes, the wonders of nature most certainly far outstrip St Peter's, and anything else, every time though, so I'm with you there.
They're designed to affect you that way.
Like any piece of art a church and especially a cathedral is designed to instill in you that exact emotion, whether through a sense of grandeur somewhere like St. Pauls or the simple wood of a reform church.
It's not difficult take any large space clear it of clutter and place a simple focal point in it. Make sure it stays quiet and you'll soon start to feel the same.
Its because we spend most of our lives in hustle and bustle with noise and confined space with lots of visual detractions - give someone the opposite and it soon starts to feel special
Like any piece of art a church and especially a cathedral is designed to instill in you that exact emotion, whether through a sense of grandeur somewhere like St. Pauls or the simple wood of a reform church.
It's not difficult take any large space clear it of clutter and place a simple focal point in it. Make sure it stays quiet and you'll soon start to feel the same.
Its because we spend most of our lives in hustle and bustle with noise and confined space with lots of visual detractions - give someone the opposite and it soon starts to feel special
I've thought as myself as an atheist for a while, but am now classing myself as open minded (sounds silly I know) reason is that things happen in my life that I can't explain and my only conclusion is that it is spititual!
How else would I explain the emotion I felt when close familty members were diagnosed with cancer and I decided in the middle of the night to pray! To who? I have no idea, but I felt better after it! And pleased to say that myfamilty have recovered well!
So for me, I believe there is something there, but what or who I'll never know!
How else would I explain the emotion I felt when close familty members were diagnosed with cancer and I decided in the middle of the night to pray! To who? I have no idea, but I felt better after it! And pleased to say that myfamilty have recovered well!
So for me, I believe there is something there, but what or who I'll never know!
