ChatterBank1 min ago
Proving the existence of God
161 Answers
I've been having a very interesting discussion with 123everton on another thread about ultimate 'truth', as opposed to faith or belief, and this question stems from that.
Can you imagine trying to 'prove', beyond doubt, in a court of law, the existence of your God? How would you go about it?
Can you imagine trying to 'prove', beyond doubt, in a court of law, the existence of your God? How would you go about it?
Answers
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Keyplus If there is more "proof" of god than there is electromagnetic rays I've yet to see it.
Oh And I don't need to see EM waves, I can see light, feel infra red, see the X-ray of my chest.
Tell you what I'll take an X-ray and you can pray over a negative and we'll both develop the film and see what happens!
Oh And I don't need to see EM waves, I can see light, feel infra red, see the X-ray of my chest.
Tell you what I'll take an X-ray and you can pray over a negative and we'll both develop the film and see what happens!
"1 - You are looking for errors and not for God"
True. I can't be blind to basic factual errors merely because you don't like it.
"And God says when [snip] in your case."
And what's *your* excuse for constantly saying the same thing while refusing to engage with the arguments?
"I have already given you answers to few of your sayings about Quran. You know where they are."
As acknowledged. And dismissed.
"Greeks did they have [snip] embryo by microscope."
One is surprised at Doctor Moore. One would think he would know where the testes are located and that bones appear after the flesh. Dr Moore is just wrong. He's not wrong because I say so, he's wrong because testes are not between the ribs and the backbone and he's wrong because bones appear after the flesh, not before and anyone you care to consult will tell you the same thing.
"2 - All your arguments, [snip] , So who would people of knowledge trust,
a - A Waldo or People like Dr Keith Moore, Dr Zakir Naik, and so on."
As I've said before, arguments do not succeed on the basis of appeals to authority, but on whether they are logical and supported by evidence. We've already shown Dr Moore's academic qualifications don't stop him from making foolish errors about embryology.
"b - however if you can prove me that you are the re-incarnation or Albert Einstein or someone else then I will trust your views"
Why not trust (or reject) them on the basis of the argument itself? To do anything else is a logical fallacy.
"In the end you might say that Greeks have two legs, two arms and one head, may be Muslims copied that as well."
No. We all copied them from a common ancestor. Everyone knows that.
True. I can't be blind to basic factual errors merely because you don't like it.
"And God says when [snip] in your case."
And what's *your* excuse for constantly saying the same thing while refusing to engage with the arguments?
"I have already given you answers to few of your sayings about Quran. You know where they are."
As acknowledged. And dismissed.
"Greeks did they have [snip] embryo by microscope."
One is surprised at Doctor Moore. One would think he would know where the testes are located and that bones appear after the flesh. Dr Moore is just wrong. He's not wrong because I say so, he's wrong because testes are not between the ribs and the backbone and he's wrong because bones appear after the flesh, not before and anyone you care to consult will tell you the same thing.
"2 - All your arguments, [snip] , So who would people of knowledge trust,
a - A Waldo or People like Dr Keith Moore, Dr Zakir Naik, and so on."
As I've said before, arguments do not succeed on the basis of appeals to authority, but on whether they are logical and supported by evidence. We've already shown Dr Moore's academic qualifications don't stop him from making foolish errors about embryology.
"b - however if you can prove me that you are the re-incarnation or Albert Einstein or someone else then I will trust your views"
Why not trust (or reject) them on the basis of the argument itself? To do anything else is a logical fallacy.
"In the end you might say that Greeks have two legs, two arms and one head, may be Muslims copied that as well."
No. We all copied them from a common ancestor. Everyone knows that.
Human can not even hear what a cat or dog can hear, So if someone invents a machine for you which would enable you to hear it. As I am not a scientist so I am not sure, may be there is already something there, You would probably know better than I do in that regard. So then you would believe in that machine but you would not believe in the one who created whole universe, Can we make a machine which should make Sun rise from the west.
You might say that yes we can put a mirror there, but then why not just change the names around, East becomes west and west becomes East.
Easy is'nt it.
You might say that yes we can put a mirror there, but then why not just change the names around, East becomes west and west becomes East.
Easy is'nt it.
You cannot prove the existence of God. But then again you will have great difficulty in disproving the existence of God. There are millions of intelligent people who truly believe this stuff. It keeps them going, as Freud said....a crutch for the masses. Anyone got any deeply religious friends or co-workers? Well they probably fit into the Fraggle Rock/ Just Had a Nervous Breakdown/ Sensitive Flower/ Can't Cope With Life mould.
You try debating with a creationist theory believer about Darwinism (evolution theory). We all know its garbage but these believers are so brainwashed they will out argue you.
If there was really a God why:
is there global poverty and starvation?
are there wars?
don't the church hand over their vast fortunes to help the less fortunate etc. etc. etc.
You try debating with a creationist theory believer about Darwinism (evolution theory). We all know its garbage but these believers are so brainwashed they will out argue you.
If there was really a God why:
is there global poverty and starvation?
are there wars?
don't the church hand over their vast fortunes to help the less fortunate etc. etc. etc.
All these discussions are going to demonstrate is that it's impossible to prove that god exists and it's also impossible to prove that god doesn't exist.
The atheists are going to say 'I see no evidence, so I must conclude that he doesn't exist', and the believers will say 'I see evidence so I must conclude that he does'.
Then there'll be a discussion about what constitutes valid evidence, which will never be resolved, and so on ad infinitum.
The atheists are going to say 'I see no evidence, so I must conclude that he doesn't exist', and the believers will say 'I see evidence so I must conclude that he does'.
Then there'll be a discussion about what constitutes valid evidence, which will never be resolved, and so on ad infinitum.
Your research is outdated Waldo, If you are referring "tests" as TEST between your legs then they only store sperms, they do not produce. And again yes- Academic qualification does make difference If you are sick you would go to MBBS and not to Corgi Registered, unless you are boiler who learnt how to walk after EVOLUTION.
But when it comes to certain things then your qualification deserts you, and you have to rely on Faith, others wise as I said for someone who wants to feel the presence of God then he is within yourself (Now you would say you are a part of God). Because all you have to do just look around you. Because every creation has a creator.
However if you want to use your intellect to find God. Then I am sure you would not find him as in the past people with utmost knowledge could not do that. Having said that if you do manage to find then let me know as well.
And if you could not do that as I am 100% sure you would be able to. Then by the time you would realise what was true it would be a little bit too late. I am afraid.
But when it comes to certain things then your qualification deserts you, and you have to rely on Faith, others wise as I said for someone who wants to feel the presence of God then he is within yourself (Now you would say you are a part of God). Because all you have to do just look around you. Because every creation has a creator.
However if you want to use your intellect to find God. Then I am sure you would not find him as in the past people with utmost knowledge could not do that. Having said that if you do manage to find then let me know as well.
And if you could not do that as I am 100% sure you would be able to. Then by the time you would realise what was true it would be a little bit too late. I am afraid.
Think of religion as Multi-Level Marketing or Pyramid Selling through the ages. One generation is indoctrinated into the 'scheme' (think Betterware catalogue but on a much grander scale), has offspring, indoctrinates the offspring (nativity plays, sunday school, christmas, easter....pressies and choccy eggs....yeah lets believe this stuff because we get goodies out of it).
Offspring grows up, gets married in a church, sees relatives getting a good christian burial......it goes on and on for centuries. Beautiful cathedrals and churches are built.....icons of the power of the 'scheme'. Eventually everyone believes in the scheme because everyone else does. If you become a representative of the scheme (priest, vicar, pastor etc.) people look up to you in the community. It snowballs and snowballs.
What is the wealthiest organisation in Italy and France? The catholic church.
What organisation is the largest landowner and posseses some of the biggest capital assets in England? 'The Church Commissioners' who are a corporate front organisation for the Church of England.
Religion is big business. I mean LOADS of money. Of course the church is going to tell you it's all true.
Offspring grows up, gets married in a church, sees relatives getting a good christian burial......it goes on and on for centuries. Beautiful cathedrals and churches are built.....icons of the power of the 'scheme'. Eventually everyone believes in the scheme because everyone else does. If you become a representative of the scheme (priest, vicar, pastor etc.) people look up to you in the community. It snowballs and snowballs.
What is the wealthiest organisation in Italy and France? The catholic church.
What organisation is the largest landowner and posseses some of the biggest capital assets in England? 'The Church Commissioners' who are a corporate front organisation for the Church of England.
Religion is big business. I mean LOADS of money. Of course the church is going to tell you it's all true.
At last - I think if you want proof of the existence of God, then you can just look at yourself, You look at Widows XP then you think about Microsoft. Why can you not think about God when you look at the things not created by someone you know.
However if you do not want to take that as a PROOF, then You have to prove to me or the others who believe in GOD that who created this all. Send me a Framed Photo.
However if you do not want to take that as a PROOF, then You have to prove to me or the others who believe in GOD that who created this all. Send me a Framed Photo.
Actually I reckon its got to be, the Duke of Norfolk, the Duke of Bedford, the Duchy of Lancaster, Duchy of Cornwall, the Queen, the National Trust, The Forestry Commission, the MOD, Oxbridge Colleges are quite landed as well as the Church.
If you are concerned about large buildings such as Cathedrals and the like, who else is to be burdened with their upkeep and maintenance, the NT, the British public?
Aren't the NT just as guilty of making money from old buildings and places?
If you are concerned about large buildings such as Cathedrals and the like, who else is to be burdened with their upkeep and maintenance, the NT, the British public?
Aren't the NT just as guilty of making money from old buildings and places?
keyplus What on earth (hah!) does making the sun rise in the West have to do with anything ?
There are natural, physical laws that govern Life on earth. On this forum we choose to believe, broadly, either,
1. These laws have arisen as a consequence of evolutionary development on earth and have been the cause of evolutionary development on earth;
2. There is some sort of ID behind the successful flourishing of Life on Earth.
Those of us who hang our hat(s) on theory 1, have our lives circumscribed because of laws devised and implemented to favour those in group 2.
If group 2 were content to live their own lives in the way they see most appropriate to their beliefs, that would be one thing, but unfortunately, there is overspill into the lives of group 1.
If I have to live in a country where religion influences the laws of the land I think it is only just that those who would have me do so prove to my satisfaction that God (of whatever kidney) exists.
There are natural, physical laws that govern Life on earth. On this forum we choose to believe, broadly, either,
1. These laws have arisen as a consequence of evolutionary development on earth and have been the cause of evolutionary development on earth;
2. There is some sort of ID behind the successful flourishing of Life on Earth.
Those of us who hang our hat(s) on theory 1, have our lives circumscribed because of laws devised and implemented to favour those in group 2.
If group 2 were content to live their own lives in the way they see most appropriate to their beliefs, that would be one thing, but unfortunately, there is overspill into the lives of group 1.
If I have to live in a country where religion influences the laws of the land I think it is only just that those who would have me do so prove to my satisfaction that God (of whatever kidney) exists.
Skoda Octavia you got the wrong end of the stick. Nobody on this thread is on about the cost and trouble of unkeep of cathedrals and churches. I mentioned the construction of ecclesiastical structures as icons of a multi-level marketing scheme.....otherwise known as religion.
I'd love to debate the issue but got to go. If you want to have an ongoing debate with someone you'll find Legend on the Chatterbank section 24/7. He's as mad as a sack of snakes but huge entertainment.
I'd love to debate the issue but got to go. If you want to have an ongoing debate with someone you'll find Legend on the Chatterbank section 24/7. He's as mad as a sack of snakes but huge entertainment.
Eyesight cannot perceive Him but He perceives eyesight. He is the All-Penetrating, the All-Aware. Clear insights have come to you from your Lord. Whoever sees clearly, does so to his own benefit. Whoever is blind, it is to his own detriment. I am not here as your keeper. (Holy Qur'an - Surat al-An'am: verses 103-104)
BREAKING NEWS.
All of the following Well known scientist, the well known experts of their fields, could not find a mistake in the Quran but,
A scientist known as the nick name of "Waldo" found errors in the book.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science /scientists.html
Even more amazing news that all those famous scientists could not establish that Quran was copied from the old Greek books, (I am not sure where those books are now), but This even more famous scientist "WALDO" pointed out about that.
All of the following Well known scientist, the well known experts of their fields, could not find a mistake in the Quran but,
A scientist known as the nick name of "Waldo" found errors in the book.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science /scientists.html
Even more amazing news that all those famous scientists could not establish that Quran was copied from the old Greek books, (I am not sure where those books are now), but This even more famous scientist "WALDO" pointed out about that.
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