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Prayer, illness, cure and insensitivity.
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Several weeks ago my husband and I were out for dinner with a couple of friends. The husband of this couple, I have known for 30 years and his wife, for 14yrs, since they married.
She is a 'holier than thou' Catholic, who did not go to a friend's wedding (C of E) as it was not a 'proper' wedding. She mentions God in most sentences and of course the local priest, mass and the Virgin Mary get plenty of references. She had a very bigoted view of non-believers but I excused this as she was young when my friend met her and had had a trouble free life. I have found through the years that religious superiority is easily spouted when there is a lack of life experience. As soon as some family problems arrive like a family member being gay, the superiority tends to drown a little, as was the case.
So for quite a few years, she has been less bigoted, much more open minded and pleasant to be with.
At dinner, all the superiority was back!
She told my husband, who has MS that it is a manifestation of a blockage caused by his athiesim! He could unblock it and return to full recovery if he prayed to God. (Although not after a few drinks, as God would be insulted)
Needless to say, the night , for us couldn't be over quick enough.
Several weeks on, I find that her daughter (aged 12) has been ill since Jan with weakness and badly swollen legs. The specialists cannot find a cause but the poor girl is spending more and more time in bed.
What I cannot understand is how she could say that my husband's illness is caused by being an athiest, when her own daughter (who has been to Lourdes, for fun, and St Geminiamo in Italy on many pilgrimages) is now struck down with a mystery illness.
Obviously prayer hasn't worked for her!
I'm just spouting really, as I don't suppose there is any real question here!
She is a 'holier than thou' Catholic, who did not go to a friend's wedding (C of E) as it was not a 'proper' wedding. She mentions God in most sentences and of course the local priest, mass and the Virgin Mary get plenty of references. She had a very bigoted view of non-believers but I excused this as she was young when my friend met her and had had a trouble free life. I have found through the years that religious superiority is easily spouted when there is a lack of life experience. As soon as some family problems arrive like a family member being gay, the superiority tends to drown a little, as was the case.
So for quite a few years, she has been less bigoted, much more open minded and pleasant to be with.
At dinner, all the superiority was back!
She told my husband, who has MS that it is a manifestation of a blockage caused by his athiesim! He could unblock it and return to full recovery if he prayed to God. (Although not after a few drinks, as God would be insulted)
Needless to say, the night , for us couldn't be over quick enough.
Several weeks on, I find that her daughter (aged 12) has been ill since Jan with weakness and badly swollen legs. The specialists cannot find a cause but the poor girl is spending more and more time in bed.
What I cannot understand is how she could say that my husband's illness is caused by being an athiest, when her own daughter (who has been to Lourdes, for fun, and St Geminiamo in Italy on many pilgrimages) is now struck down with a mystery illness.
Obviously prayer hasn't worked for her!
I'm just spouting really, as I don't suppose there is any real question here!
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This rather sounds like someone who is rather insecure and likes to look for simple answers to complex questions.
Someone who has a rather desperate need for certainty and to be "right".
Perhaps someone who had a bad experience in their past and had trouble coming to terms with it?
Anyway I'm not a psychiatrist but I do know about some research on the power of prayer.
There was an experiment with 3 groups of heart patients. One group was not prayed for, one group was prayed for secretly and one group was told that they were being prayed for.
The first two groups made similar recovery but the figures for those who knew that they were being prayed for were significantly worse!
Someone who has a rather desperate need for certainty and to be "right".
Perhaps someone who had a bad experience in their past and had trouble coming to terms with it?
Anyway I'm not a psychiatrist but I do know about some research on the power of prayer.
There was an experiment with 3 groups of heart patients. One group was not prayed for, one group was prayed for secretly and one group was told that they were being prayed for.
The first two groups made similar recovery but the figures for those who knew that they were being prayed for were significantly worse!
At the risk of being splattered with custard pies from non believers, I would like to offer the following.
The true miracle of prayer, is not the cure of illnesses, and the other deferments or cancellations of the natural course of events, although these can happen in my opinion, but sudden realisation that the sins of the praying sinner are forgiven, and that he / she has entered into a restored and loving eternal relationship with the one true living God, through his Son, Jesus Christ.
There is the miracle.
Roman Catholicism is, I am afraid, not a strict adherence to the Bible, but adds its own dimensions of good works, sacraments and papal authority.
Unless and until your friend comes to a believing faith in Christ Jesus alone, then she is being misled by a religion that is called Christian, but is, in fact, an aberration of true Christianity.
Please do not interpret my comments as a veiled hatred of Roman Catholics. My Father, son-in-law, broher-in-law and many friends are R.C. but my issues are with Roman Catholicism, and the Vatican.
The true miracle of prayer, is not the cure of illnesses, and the other deferments or cancellations of the natural course of events, although these can happen in my opinion, but sudden realisation that the sins of the praying sinner are forgiven, and that he / she has entered into a restored and loving eternal relationship with the one true living God, through his Son, Jesus Christ.
There is the miracle.
Roman Catholicism is, I am afraid, not a strict adherence to the Bible, but adds its own dimensions of good works, sacraments and papal authority.
Unless and until your friend comes to a believing faith in Christ Jesus alone, then she is being misled by a religion that is called Christian, but is, in fact, an aberration of true Christianity.
Please do not interpret my comments as a veiled hatred of Roman Catholics. My Father, son-in-law, broher-in-law and many friends are R.C. but my issues are with Roman Catholicism, and the Vatican.
Theland, the Bible - specifically Jesus - is very clear that all you have to do to have a prayer answered is ask and believe your own prayer. There's no subtext, no ambiguity. It is not a matter of being a catholic or a baptist or whatever.
Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."
John 14:12-14: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
Matthew 18:19 "Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Matt 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! "
Matt 17:20: "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."
Matt 21:21 "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. "
Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."
John 14:12-14: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
Matthew 18:19 "Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Matt 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! "
Matt 17:20: "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."
Matt 21:21 "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. "
For clarity:
Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."
John 14:12-14: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
Matthew 18:19 "Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Matt 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! "
Matt 17:20: "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."
Matt 21:21 "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. "
Mark 11:24 "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."
John 14:12-14: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
Matthew 18:19 "Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Matt 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! "
Matt 17:20: "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."
Matt 21:21 "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. "
There are reasons why prayer goes unanswered.
The link will provide some help for genuine seekers.
http://www.victorious.org/unprayer.htm
The link will provide some help for genuine seekers.
http://www.victorious.org/unprayer.htm
Waldo - I can guess what the reason is. The reason is that as far as you are concerned, God does not exist.
I don't know what to say to that at this time, as I'm waiting for an answer to an extra question I slipped into somebodys' thread about baked potatoes. They exist, even for you, Waldo!
Coco pops - I would like to offer my sympathy to you for your illness, and I hope that in gods' good time you will be healed, but I am glad that the greater miracle, the grace of God, is poured out upon you.
I don't know what to say to that at this time, as I'm waiting for an answer to an extra question I slipped into somebodys' thread about baked potatoes. They exist, even for you, Waldo!
Coco pops - I would like to offer my sympathy to you for your illness, and I hope that in gods' good time you will be healed, but I am glad that the greater miracle, the grace of God, is poured out upon you.
waldo - You certainly know your stuff!
Theland - I've looked at the list of reasons why God would not answer a prayer and I can tell you that the lady in question has utter, utter belief, trust and faith in God and I can't see any of the other reasons apply.
It seems to me that when a prayer is not answered it all put down to and brushed aside as 'God's wil which is an easy get out clause.
Octavius - That made me chuckle!
Theland - I've looked at the list of reasons why God would not answer a prayer and I can tell you that the lady in question has utter, utter belief, trust and faith in God and I can't see any of the other reasons apply.
It seems to me that when a prayer is not answered it all put down to and brushed aside as 'God's wil which is an easy get out clause.
Octavius - That made me chuckle!
Le Chat Sad about the little girl, but this woman sounds like one very twisted lady. Why is it that the 'holier than thou' among us deem themselves qualified to pronounce on something like the cause of an illness? How dare she?!! She should have been gagged at birth. I trust you won't be seeking her company in future?
Theland ............ Organised Christianity in all its forms is an aberration of what true Christianity ought to be. Custard pies on their way! Duck!!
Coco I'm so very sorry to hear of your illness. Lots of love to you. x
Theland ............ Organised Christianity in all its forms is an aberration of what true Christianity ought to be. Custard pies on their way! Duck!!
Coco I'm so very sorry to hear of your illness. Lots of love to you. x
Le Chat - I was, and still am ill. I had to reluctantly give up my job two weeks ago because of it. I hope to find alternative work as soon as possible, as already I feel like a scrounger, this is not me.
Yes, I pray, but I pray for Gods' will to be done in my life, for my needs to be met, and for the grace and strength to carry on and meet each day as it comes.
God knows my needs better than I do, so if He wishes me to be well, He will make it so. However, I worked long hours every week for years on end, and I am guilty of putting God in second place, not first. So, just speculating, maybe this is Gods way of putting my life on to a different track, in order to serve Him better, by serving others better.
Who knows? The trials of life teach us patience. I haven't quite learned that lesson yet I confess. I try to do things through my own strength, rather than having more faith in god to provide and look out for me.
Yes, I pray, but I pray for Gods' will to be done in my life, for my needs to be met, and for the grace and strength to carry on and meet each day as it comes.
God knows my needs better than I do, so if He wishes me to be well, He will make it so. However, I worked long hours every week for years on end, and I am guilty of putting God in second place, not first. So, just speculating, maybe this is Gods way of putting my life on to a different track, in order to serve Him better, by serving others better.
Who knows? The trials of life teach us patience. I haven't quite learned that lesson yet I confess. I try to do things through my own strength, rather than having more faith in god to provide and look out for me.
Naomi - You are correct - We I will not be seeking out her company again!
Theland - I understand and admire the sentiment of 'leaving it all up to God's will' (the lady in my post also shares this view for everyday living) but doesn't that just absolve you as a person from making your own mind up? What will happen if nothing happens, if God doesn't make any kind of move or come up with a new offer of employment?
Theland - I understand and admire the sentiment of 'leaving it all up to God's will' (the lady in my post also shares this view for everyday living) but doesn't that just absolve you as a person from making your own mind up? What will happen if nothing happens, if God doesn't make any kind of move or come up with a new offer of employment?
Le Chat - That is a very interesting observation, but, what you describe is more like a hindu belief in karma, or the arab saying, "Insha Allah", (hope I pronounced and spelled that correctly.)
In other words, a refusal to take responsibility for ones own affairs.
"Karma," or fate, and there is ****** all you can do about it so why get off your butt and ttry to change what cannot be changed.
"Insha Allah," or, if god wills it, again why bother as Gods' will, will be done anyway!
Maybe these views are in some large measure responsible for third world poverty, I suspect so, and the backwardness of the Arab nations.
I rather believe that I must do what I can and God will do the rest, but I must include God in my decision making, through prayer, and the answer will come, but I have to also make the effort to bring about an outcome that I have prayed about.
In other words, a refusal to take responsibility for ones own affairs.
"Karma," or fate, and there is ****** all you can do about it so why get off your butt and ttry to change what cannot be changed.
"Insha Allah," or, if god wills it, again why bother as Gods' will, will be done anyway!
Maybe these views are in some large measure responsible for third world poverty, I suspect so, and the backwardness of the Arab nations.
I rather believe that I must do what I can and God will do the rest, but I must include God in my decision making, through prayer, and the answer will come, but I have to also make the effort to bring about an outcome that I have prayed about.
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