Does your body, or just your soul end up in heaven/hell?

[flobadob]

Whenever someone dies and ends up in heaven/hell are they there as they were on earth or is it just their soul which ends up there? Also, are people who died before god was invented there or do you have to believe in that stuff for it to take effect?

[keyplus90]

No of course not Wiz. And not every one is going to get eternal punishment. It would be according to the sins and the nature and extent of the sins. Even a judge in this world does not give a life imprisonment to someone who has just punched someone.

If you are asking for the sake of asking then in Islam we believe that the biggest sin is associating a partner with God. That partner could be any one, A Son, A holy spirit, or all the other deities people believe in even as a ladder to get closer to God (like Hindu),that would not be forgiven. Other sins would be punished accordingly and there would be a limit to that. Even if God want to forgive these people as he is most forgiving then no one can argue upon his decision.

However I know many would feel this like a story in fiction, and heard it before, then it is a matter of wait and see.

[naomi24]

Octavius, I am certain of that, but I can offer no proof, and so have no alternative but to restrict my comment on it.

Keyplus, that's rather short-sighted. No one knows whether or not reincarnation is a fact, but if it is, just imagine the number of souls, animal and human, that have existed since the beginning of time. Who's to say how many souls inhabit earthly bodies at any one time - unless, of course, you know that there's a restriction on numbers?

God is clearly not most forgiving, as you would have us believe. I agree with Wiz. The idea of unimaginable vengeance is sick. As you say, we will have to wait and see - but I strongly suspect that you're in for a big surprise.

[keyplus90]

Surprise is for the people who do not know. And I know that 2+2=4

[naomi24]

You may believe - but belief doesn't make you right. There's a big difference between individual belief and the certain knowledge of proven truth.

[keyplus90]

Award for Naomi, please����������.

[Octavius]

There's a big difference between individual belief and the certain knowledge of proven truth.

So why were you so judgemental about me when I queried your certainty of belief when it comes to seeing ghosts?

[naomi24]

Keyplus, What on earth are you talking about?

Octavius, I'm not sure what your point is. I don't recall being judgemental with you when taking about ghosts.

[MsEVP]

Interesting debate started here by Flobadob. And the worm/human population question by Keyplus requires some serious thinking ( at least on my part). However, he`s not ENTIRELY accurate when he states: In the end no one has been there and back.

[starmack]

The new BBC History mag has Cromwell on the cover. He did a lot of slaughter, believing it was God's will more or less.

Anybody know where he is...because he should be in The Hague for war crimes.

[flobadob]

When you guys talk about Hitler being reincarnated as a worm, does the worm know that he was once Hitler, or does he just go about thinking he's a worm? The thing is, how is Hitler getting punished if he is reincarnated as a worm but doesn't actually know that he is one? And if the worm does know he was once Hitler and tries to come back each time as a better person, is there a stage when he forgets he was once Hitler, or theoretically could he eventually become a person again, still in the knowledge that he was once Hitler?

[a-new-user]

in the future when people die, they will be put straight on the local refuse tip!.

[keyplus90]

Flobadob - Its nice thing you mentioned there about Worm being Hitler or Hitler being a worm and if e was aware of previous life. I have already said what I had to say about that as I do not believe in this any way. Now I would love to see how Naomi will explain the life cycles or her beloved Worm.

[terambulan]

Heaven & Hell are places in an individuals mind.

When someone dies their life is with you and you place them where you feel they belong. The dead are with you thru your memory.

[naomi24]

Haaaa! Very good, flobadob. That was funny. I don't think conscious punishment comes into it. It's simply that if someone is reincarnated as a lower lifeform, then it takes the soul longer to reach its ultimate goal - Nirvana - or enlightenment - and that belief is what makes most Buddhists such gentle, caring people. I think the theory is that Hitler wouldn't be aware that he'd once been Hitler (although his soul would be aware of every incarnation, since that is striving for perfection). As a worm, hopefully he'd be a wise worm and a very industrious worm and would treat his fellow worms with respect. In effect, if he lived the best worm life he could, he'd eventually be reincarnated as a higher lifeform - maybe a bee - or a rabbit - and so it would continue up the chain until he once again became a man, and continued to be reincarnated as a better man each time until he attained Nirvana, which is the moment that reincarnation ceases and the soul becomes one with the universe. Of course, if on his initial reincarnation into a human body, he turned out to be Hitler again, back he'd go into the body of a worm - or worse. Maybe an amoeba? (I'm making myself laugh here!).

[naomi24]

You can't resist it, can you Keyplus? Oh boy, women with opinions bug you, don't they - especially those called Naomi?!! But there you - that's the explanation. No horrendous God full of hatred and vengeance torturing people and taking pleasure in doing it. Just man taking responsibility for his own actions. You would love to see the explanation? Well, I hope you enjoyed it.

[keyplus90]

So who gives the grading Naomi? Like foe example who decides that bee is better than worm. Or is there any list or hierarchy.

But after all this fuss a person has to be a good person then why can�t he be good in the first place������.Oh sorry I forgot what I am thinking as my first chance might be my third or fourth step on the ladder. So what do you think happens if a human behaves well? Is there any grade above that?

I saw two worms talking in my back garden just few hours ago when I was stting there. I could not understand the language or what they were talking about but I did notice that one of them had very unusual style of moustache����

Come on guys, we all have probably been worms at some stage, few may be amoeba, what a shame�..

Night night. I better go to bed before I turn into a bee.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, you always try to muster support on here, don't you? You need to have more confidence in your own opinions, my boy. Maybe, as you say, you'd better go to bed. A good rest might enable you to think more clearly in the morning and to extricate your mind from its permanent prison.

[flobadob]

terambulan might have it right there, perhaps we are all part of one conciousness, only at odd with ourselves. I would like this thread to end on a happy note.

[naomi24]

I'm not a Buddhist, but I think the whole point of Buddhism. Flobadob, is that in the end we all become part of one consciousness. We are at odds with ourselves, but we have to take responsibilty for,our own actions. :o) (My smiley is, hopefully, a happy note).