ChatterBank32 mins ago
One God or two
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The God of the Old Testament, and the God of the New Testament, are so different, inasmuch as one is an unforgiving God, the other is a forgiving God, one didn't mind taking life, the other does, etc etc.
Is it possible, that they are in fact two differents Gods?.
Is it possible, that they are in fact two differents Gods?.
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God is a schitzophrenic. When He is the paranoid phase He gets His minions to slaughter anyone He doesn't trust.
When He ordered the Hebrews to massace the tribes in the Promised Land they were so impressed because He thought they were the chosen people.
Unfortunately for them He was just as happy to have them massacred at other times.
God and Satan are the same.
When He ordered the Hebrews to massace the tribes in the Promised Land they were so impressed because He thought they were the chosen people.
Unfortunately for them He was just as happy to have them massacred at other times.
God and Satan are the same.
I believe that practically all myth has some basis in reality, Lonnie, and I've also considered this possibility. I came to the conclusion years ago that the God of the Old Testament actually existed, but was perceived to be supernatural simply because he (or more likely they) possessed a level of technology far in advance of anything known at that time. The God of the New Testament is man's creation of a more benign entity - something more acceptable to his needs and sensibilities - but nevertheless based upon the legends surrounding the old God, who by the time the New Testament was written, had long disappeared.
we tend to see gods (and God in particular) as unchanging but it's never really been that way. As the Romans came to rule other nations their own gods usually got merged with the local ones and the way people saw and worshipped them would change accordingly. Something similar happened with the Judaeo-Christian god: he was originally a tribal war/protector god of the Hebrews, but their perception of him changed along with their perception of their own place in the world. One example would be the sacrifice of Isaac: God finally tells Abraham not to do it and to kill an animal instead. From our point of view animal sacrifice is still pretty primitive - but at the time the move away from human sacrifice was a huge societal step.
As for the god of the NT: we now see him through the eyes of a new prophet, Jesus, and although he claims to be the son of the OT (and Jewish) god his own message is a lot more gentle. (Though he was not above blasting fig trees that annoyed him.) Probably this change in focus was what enabled Christianity to spread worldwide. The Jewish faith was carried abroad with Jews; but Christianity made converts. His message of a better life to come initially appealed to the downtrodden in Rome - women and slaves in particular. Once Constantine had the religion made official, at the head of the biggest empire in the world, its reach became much broader. Ironically, Constantine did so by winning a battle in God's name, thus turning him back into a war god; and there has been a militaristic element in Christianity ever since (eg the Crusades). But it's no longer the main focus; we are much more inclined to remember Christ saying 'blessed are the peacemakers'. Gods change as societies change.
As for the god of the NT: we now see him through the eyes of a new prophet, Jesus, and although he claims to be the son of the OT (and Jewish) god his own message is a lot more gentle. (Though he was not above blasting fig trees that annoyed him.) Probably this change in focus was what enabled Christianity to spread worldwide. The Jewish faith was carried abroad with Jews; but Christianity made converts. His message of a better life to come initially appealed to the downtrodden in Rome - women and slaves in particular. Once Constantine had the religion made official, at the head of the biggest empire in the world, its reach became much broader. Ironically, Constantine did so by winning a battle in God's name, thus turning him back into a war god; and there has been a militaristic element in Christianity ever since (eg the Crusades). But it's no longer the main focus; we are much more inclined to remember Christ saying 'blessed are the peacemakers'. Gods change as societies change.
beso,
Great answer.
naomi,
God said in the first commandment, 'Thou shalt not worship any Gods before me', )there is no insistence on monotheism) Gods as in plural, which I guess is what your referring to, I've also often wondered about that, one or more than one God?,
As for actually existing, I don't know, but if he did, he's either dead, or given up on his creation, and as you say, has long since disapeared.
I can agree totally with your explanation of the God of the New Testament.
Great answer.
naomi,
God said in the first commandment, 'Thou shalt not worship any Gods before me', )there is no insistence on monotheism) Gods as in plural, which I guess is what your referring to, I've also often wondered about that, one or more than one God?,
As for actually existing, I don't know, but if he did, he's either dead, or given up on his creation, and as you say, has long since disapeared.
I can agree totally with your explanation of the God of the New Testament.
Lonnie, I'm saying that I think this God was a creature of flesh and blood - and like all the other Gods throughout history, was not supernatural at all.
jno, the only time the bible tells us Jesus claimed to be the son of God was at his trial - and since none of his followers were present, and there are no official records, who could possibly have reported that? Just a thought.
jno, the only time the bible tells us Jesus claimed to be the son of God was at his trial - and since none of his followers were present, and there are no official records, who could possibly have reported that? Just a thought.
how can there be two gods ? or even one for that matter ?
you either believe gods exist or you dont in my op. this q is just an assessment of a story book, like we would analyse and interpret the works of shakespeare or milton etc.
in volume 1 its dark and foreboding, but following the enlightenment (i.e. jesus dieing and saving the the world becomes a pretty and lovelier place. its much the generic stiuff of classic literature, poetry and even modern songwriting. i did drugs sang weird melancholic songs, went into rehab, noiw im clean and evrtyghings grand and my songs are cheery melodic ballads.
thats how i see it. the god stuff is just a typical story cented around a theme. starting with the dark stuff and moving into the light is the cycle of things.
you either believe gods exist or you dont in my op. this q is just an assessment of a story book, like we would analyse and interpret the works of shakespeare or milton etc.
in volume 1 its dark and foreboding, but following the enlightenment (i.e. jesus dieing and saving the the world becomes a pretty and lovelier place. its much the generic stiuff of classic literature, poetry and even modern songwriting. i did drugs sang weird melancholic songs, went into rehab, noiw im clean and evrtyghings grand and my songs are cheery melodic ballads.
thats how i see it. the god stuff is just a typical story cented around a theme. starting with the dark stuff and moving into the light is the cycle of things.
according to Mark, God himself says it when Jesus is baptised ('this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased'). Feel free to disbelieve it if you wish, since there are no other eyewitness accounts of that one either, and nothing on YouTube; and people didn't feel obliged to name their sources. This doesn't mean they didn't have any.
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/son-of-god- faq.htm
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/son-of-god- faq.htm
One of my favourites is in Second Kings about verse 24 if I remember correctly.
A priest was walking between two towns when some children made fun of his bald head. He cursed them in the name of the father and two she-bears came from the forest and tore them to pieces.
In the New Testament there is a lovely piece about how a man has a guest. Unfortunately some bad men wanted to abduct the guest with the intention of "knowing" him.
Like all good hosts would, he offerred the attackers his virgin daughter instead. After all she was only a girl, not a real person.
A priest was walking between two towns when some children made fun of his bald head. He cursed them in the name of the father and two she-bears came from the forest and tore them to pieces.
In the New Testament there is a lovely piece about how a man has a guest. Unfortunately some bad men wanted to abduct the guest with the intention of "knowing" him.
Like all good hosts would, he offerred the attackers his virgin daughter instead. After all she was only a girl, not a real person.
-- answer removed --
the god of the old testament, YHVH, was a Hebrew weather god (from the time that they were polytheists). As 'he' developed politically he changed to the creator god. It's no surprise that hundreds (thousansd?) of years later he'd developed further. In fact, look at the god of fire and brimstone of our parents generation and see if he's recognisable to your predecessors - go back even two or three generations and I'd doubt it
jno, according to Mark, God himself says it when Jesus is baptised. Yes, according to Mark, but we don't know who wrote the Gospel of Mark - or any of the Gospels. However, since Mark's Gospel mentions the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70AD, we do know that it must have been written long after the crucifixion. The fact is according to the bible, even though Jesus apparently only once confirmed his status (at his trial), when asked directly by his disciples if he was the Son of God, he simply said 'Who do you say I am? Doesn't that strike you as odd? Why would he confirm it to his accusers, with no one to record it, but not to his followers who were supposed to be spreading the word? Additionally, I have to wonder why all these momentous, earth-shattering, supernatural events and miracles weren't eagerly recorded at the time, and if they were, why those documents weren't guarded and preserved for posterity? This was the Son of God for 'heaven's' sake! Wouldn't you think that someone would have made the effort? Instead of that, we have a mish-mash of conflicting documents written, in the main, by unknown authors long after the event, and altered time and time again by the resulting Christian churches. It's all a little suspect to say the least, so yes, I do feel free to disbelieve.
Your link to the website of an American religious group clearly bent on converting people can hardly be considered unbiased or impartial, jno, so I don't think you'll find many seriously objective students giving that much credibility.
Your link to the website of an American religious group clearly bent on converting people can hardly be considered unbiased or impartial, jno, so I don't think you'll find many seriously objective students giving that much credibility.
jno, you've given a very thoughtful and comprehensive answer, and while I agree with you on the evolution of the idea of God, i'm not talking about Jesus, as there's no proof he actually existed, anyway, the New Testament God was around before Jesus was born.
naomi, thats a fair one, I hadn't looked at it from that angle before, the Old Testament God being flesh and Blood, hmm, needs some deep meditaion, I'll come back on that at a later date, if you don't mind.
Ankou, so far, according to the Bible, there is one God, for both the Old and new Testaments, however, as I said, the God of the Old Testament is completely different, (personality and actionwise), so much so, that it seems as if the one God, could actually be two different ones. And that what i'm asking, is it possible?.
Assuming from what you've written, your a non believer, so for this post, just pretend you are, and answer in that light.
wizard66, nice to see you on here, but as I said above, i'm talking about God, not Jesus, as historically, he didn't exist.
naomi, thats a fair one, I hadn't looked at it from that angle before, the Old Testament God being flesh and Blood, hmm, needs some deep meditaion, I'll come back on that at a later date, if you don't mind.
Ankou, so far, according to the Bible, there is one God, for both the Old and new Testaments, however, as I said, the God of the Old Testament is completely different, (personality and actionwise), so much so, that it seems as if the one God, could actually be two different ones. And that what i'm asking, is it possible?.
Assuming from what you've written, your a non believer, so for this post, just pretend you are, and answer in that light.
wizard66, nice to see you on here, but as I said above, i'm talking about God, not Jesus, as historically, he didn't exist.
For myself, as an ex believer, and a devout one, plus also, i've read both the Old and new Testaments,
The God of the Old Testament was/is strictly the God of the Jews, no-one else, he traeted the Jewish people as a father would a wayward child, he was also a Dictator, a Killer, a punisher, a Conquerer.
The God of the new Testament was/ is none of the above, but the transformation was sudden, instantanious;
Makes you think, doesn't it.
The God of the Old Testament was/is strictly the God of the Jews, no-one else, he traeted the Jewish people as a father would a wayward child, he was also a Dictator, a Killer, a punisher, a Conquerer.
The God of the new Testament was/ is none of the above, but the transformation was sudden, instantanious;
Makes you think, doesn't it.
naomi: basically, because in those days you didn't have people rushing round recording things all the time. In a society in which we can see the receipt for a box of matches bought by an MP we might forget that 2000 years ago nothing much was written down at all. That doesn't mean people couldn't remember what they'd seen and tell other people about it (in fact my guess would be that their memories were very much better, having no databases to fall back on for checking things; but that's just a guess). It's perfectly possible - in fact it would be normal - that what we read in the bible was transmitted by oral tradition before it was finally set down, and by people with much better memories than ours.
It's no good demanding to see Jesus' signature before we'll believe he existed; we don't have thorough accounts of anyone but a few emperors and poets. There were millions of people alive at that time of whom we know absolutely nothing at all; and then there's Jesus, whose life was attested to by many people, though not written down until years later. I think those accounts survived for a reason.
Lonnie, I realise you weren't looking for an account of Jesus; my point was that that's who the NT is really about, and the God we see there is filtered through the story of his 'son' - so it's his message rather than his father's that is the focus. Under those circumstances it's not surprising we see a God who seems different from the God of the OT. My own father's life would look substantially different in his own telling of it than it would from the way I remember it; yours too, probably.
brionon, I see quite a difference between ordering the massacre of children and cursing a fig tree.
It's no good demanding to see Jesus' signature before we'll believe he existed; we don't have thorough accounts of anyone but a few emperors and poets. There were millions of people alive at that time of whom we know absolutely nothing at all; and then there's Jesus, whose life was attested to by many people, though not written down until years later. I think those accounts survived for a reason.
Lonnie, I realise you weren't looking for an account of Jesus; my point was that that's who the NT is really about, and the God we see there is filtered through the story of his 'son' - so it's his message rather than his father's that is the focus. Under those circumstances it's not surprising we see a God who seems different from the God of the OT. My own father's life would look substantially different in his own telling of it than it would from the way I remember it; yours too, probably.
brionon, I see quite a difference between ordering the massacre of children and cursing a fig tree.
jno, I'm not questioning whether or not Jesus existed. I think he did. It's the claim that he was the Son of God, not made by him, but by others on his behalf that I question. I think he has been greatly and purposely misunderstood, and hence, appallingly misrepresented, and I feel very sorry for him. Unlike his so-called followers, or those who hold in him high esteem as a prophet, I am not on the side of the church, or the mosque, or either doctrine - I'm on his side.
Sorry Lonnie, we went completely off track - but what's new?!! I agree that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament do appear to possess totally different personalities, but I think it's highly likely that, in his youth, Jesus studied the eastern religions, and hence, possessed perhaps a greater insight into man's personal sense of spirituality and his connection with the world around him. Additionally, since the Jews weren't interested in the new religion that others created around the name of Jesus, I believe the authors of the New Testament, and those who translated and amended the texts over and over again throughout the years attempted to expand the church into the rest of the world, where, since people venerated multiple Gods, they might be willing to listen. However, in order to render this God more acceptable to the gentiles, the messengers were obliged to soften him up - and clearly to change some of the Jewish laws - which they did.
Sorry Lonnie, we went completely off track - but what's new?!! I agree that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament do appear to possess totally different personalities, but I think it's highly likely that, in his youth, Jesus studied the eastern religions, and hence, possessed perhaps a greater insight into man's personal sense of spirituality and his connection with the world around him. Additionally, since the Jews weren't interested in the new religion that others created around the name of Jesus, I believe the authors of the New Testament, and those who translated and amended the texts over and over again throughout the years attempted to expand the church into the rest of the world, where, since people venerated multiple Gods, they might be willing to listen. However, in order to render this God more acceptable to the gentiles, the messengers were obliged to soften him up - and clearly to change some of the Jewish laws - which they did.
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