News1 min ago
Would you save Jesus?
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Christians believe that in order to save their sins, God condemned Jesus to a cruel and brutal death. If you believe that, given the choice and the opportunity, would you rescue him, or would you allow him to die?
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Well this gets to the heart of my biggest problem with Christianity.
To me the whole crucifixion thing is abject gobbledegook.
Somehow Jesus is part of God but not God and that part of God getting killed saves humanity from a punishment created by a different part of God who being all knowing knew this would happen from the moment of creation.
And as you point out this great crime has to happen for this supposed great good
What have they been putting in the communion wine?!!!
Personally I think this makes much more sense if you interpret it in a polytheistic way in the culture of Roman and Greek Gods. With a lesser God sacrificing himself to calm the vengeful fury of Jupiter/Zeus.
Of course in a Jewish context this is a great crime so you end up with the Trinity fudge to bring together graeco-roman culture with Jewish beliefs
To me the whole crucifixion thing is abject gobbledegook.
Somehow Jesus is part of God but not God and that part of God getting killed saves humanity from a punishment created by a different part of God who being all knowing knew this would happen from the moment of creation.
And as you point out this great crime has to happen for this supposed great good
What have they been putting in the communion wine?!!!
Personally I think this makes much more sense if you interpret it in a polytheistic way in the culture of Roman and Greek Gods. With a lesser God sacrificing himself to calm the vengeful fury of Jupiter/Zeus.
Of course in a Jewish context this is a great crime so you end up with the Trinity fudge to bring together graeco-roman culture with Jewish beliefs
Sqad, yes, indeed - but let's assume you have a simple choice with come backs (oops, a poor choice of words there!). Condemn him or save him. If you condemn him, your sins are guaranteed to be saved, if you rescue him, you are forced to accept responsibility for your own sins.
Jack, Ha ha! I thought it was a very good question. :o)
Jack, Ha ha! I thought it was a very good question. :o)
Jesus died for our sins but he didn't really die. So how much of a sarifice is that really? We are still responsible for what we do.
I have no doubt anyone who rescued someone from crucifixtion would get a lot of attention from the authorities. He obviously was entirely in control anyway. A Saturday getting over a tough day in his job as a martyr and he was strong enough to roll that rock out of the way by himself on Sunday morning, despite the holes in his hands and ankles.
The Crucifixion is just God trying to dicipline Jesus after He got carried away and claimed that He was just as powerful. God has always obliged with a few party tricks if you were His friend at the time and Jesus put on a good show but Jesus got too involved. "Walk across the water, feed all this people, make this person alive, another one, too bl00dy much Jesus, I've got other universes to work on." "You are not the Messiah, just a very naughty boy."
Crucifixitaion to Jesus is like a smack to an ordinary kid. Remember "no crying He makes".
I have no doubt anyone who rescued someone from crucifixtion would get a lot of attention from the authorities. He obviously was entirely in control anyway. A Saturday getting over a tough day in his job as a martyr and he was strong enough to roll that rock out of the way by himself on Sunday morning, despite the holes in his hands and ankles.
The Crucifixion is just God trying to dicipline Jesus after He got carried away and claimed that He was just as powerful. God has always obliged with a few party tricks if you were His friend at the time and Jesus put on a good show but Jesus got too involved. "Walk across the water, feed all this people, make this person alive, another one, too bl00dy much Jesus, I've got other universes to work on." "You are not the Messiah, just a very naughty boy."
Crucifixitaion to Jesus is like a smack to an ordinary kid. Remember "no crying He makes".
I was really trying to get at the moral issue with this question. Would you be happy to watch someone die horribly in order that your sins may be forgiven, or would you be prepared to accept responsibility your own redemption by doing the truly Christian thing and saving an innocent man? Imagine you were in Pilate's position, for example, and you knew why Jesus was supposed to die. What would you do?
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as someone who doesn't believe in all this, and with the knowledge that we have now, i would assume that jesus was someone who might have a mental illness (imaginary friend, delusions of grandeur etc) so i would save him on compassionate grounds. but as said above, if this meant that i'd be nailed up then probably not, on the basis of saving my own skin and not wanting to be a martyr.
if i was pilate then that is different. in them days they believed in all this heavenly power etc etc. but not only that, they had little time or concern for lowly peasants who tried to rise above their station, and even less for those with mental or physical inflictiond. romans thoiught they were the earhen deities in all this. we all know what happened to the slaves who rebelled against the romans. the roads to rome were paved with crucifixions. so if i was pilate in his time and place, i would have shrugged my shoulders and got on with the job of eliminating this annoying nuisance, it would be a mere inconvenience (if not an afternoons entertainment)
the only reason we are lead to believe in his presumed apprehension of not going through with it, is because subsequent romans compiled the story to make romans look more favourable. it was the jews what did it and the rest is histry.
if i was pilate then that is different. in them days they believed in all this heavenly power etc etc. but not only that, they had little time or concern for lowly peasants who tried to rise above their station, and even less for those with mental or physical inflictiond. romans thoiught they were the earhen deities in all this. we all know what happened to the slaves who rebelled against the romans. the roads to rome were paved with crucifixions. so if i was pilate in his time and place, i would have shrugged my shoulders and got on with the job of eliminating this annoying nuisance, it would be a mere inconvenience (if not an afternoons entertainment)
the only reason we are lead to believe in his presumed apprehension of not going through with it, is because subsequent romans compiled the story to make romans look more favourable. it was the jews what did it and the rest is histry.
like asking whether you'd have killed Hitler in the early 30s if you had the chance. I wouldn't have, because I wouldn't have had the power to look into the future and see that Hitler would set off a world war or that Jesus would have become a god.
If I did have the power to see the future, I would have done a lot of things differently, not least to do with the lotto.
Was it Kurt Vonnegut who said 'Jesus died for your sins - do you dare make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them'?
If I did have the power to see the future, I would have done a lot of things differently, not least to do with the lotto.
Was it Kurt Vonnegut who said 'Jesus died for your sins - do you dare make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them'?
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Hello Spock, not according to Christians and Muslims.
Ankou, You may have something there. His own family questioned his sanity.
JNO, No, it isn't like asking whether you would have killed Hitler, and it doesn't relate to the effect that your decision may or may not have on history. This hypothetical question is a one of basic moral values, and asks quite simply if you would choose to save his life if it meant that he could no longer redeem your sins, and you personally were obliged to bear sole responsibility for them. In other words, would you swap the promise of your guaranteed redemption for his life?
Keyplus, no, you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross, but there are good reasons for that which we won't go into right now.
Ankou, You may have something there. His own family questioned his sanity.
JNO, No, it isn't like asking whether you would have killed Hitler, and it doesn't relate to the effect that your decision may or may not have on history. This hypothetical question is a one of basic moral values, and asks quite simply if you would choose to save his life if it meant that he could no longer redeem your sins, and you personally were obliged to bear sole responsibility for them. In other words, would you swap the promise of your guaranteed redemption for his life?
Keyplus, no, you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross, but there are good reasons for that which we won't go into right now.
But Christians believe in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, so Jakes remark "Somehow Jesus is part of God but not God and that part of God getting killed" is not quite correct. It was in fact God himself setting himself up to die, which prompts the question "Why did Jesus call out on the cross 'Father why have you forsaken me?'?". He must have been talking to himself, so perhaps God was bonkers as well. Either that, or Jesus being God and vice versa, then clearly even if God existed, the whole thing was a con.
Androcles, It certainly means I have greater compassion than God.
rojash, I've often said the same myself.
Mibs, I was going to say 'What's poor old Joseph done to deserve that?', but I see what you mean. Good idea, but how are you going to nab him? He hasn't been around for thousands of years, so he's rather elusive.
rojash, I've often said the same myself.
Mibs, I was going to say 'What's poor old Joseph done to deserve that?', but I see what you mean. Good idea, but how are you going to nab him? He hasn't been around for thousands of years, so he's rather elusive.
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