Religion and Spirituality

[Seadragon]

Dear all - This is my last post on Religion & Spirituality. I've had enough here, not because I argue with people - that I enjoy. But because of the lack of any positivity on this site. I think some of you underestimate the power that faith has on people and your efforts, if at all any, to understand it are pretty futile. Faith goes beyond the words of a book - be it the Koran, Bible or other. Those holy texts are simply written in a time that was different and Man has used this material since then for his own power over people, whether that relates to sex, contraception, marriage, prejudice, war etc. But the essential element of a belief in God is that of faith - faith beyond the written word.

I can only suggest one parallel to you from my own experience and you may or maynot or to some degree be able to relate to it - I have children. My children are the greatest love of my life. (Although my sister and best friend are a very close second!) My children can give me the greatest pleasure and the greatest pain I will probably ever experience. My outer love for them varies with life - I am upset with them, angry (rarely but only when hurt) frustrated at times but I also laugh with and at them. However my inner love for them knows no boundaries - there is no night or day, no anger, resentment or frustration. Words are inadequate to express the inner feelings that I have for my children. When they physically left my womb, they left some of their presence and that presence is with me at all times even when they are physically not. There is no rationality to what I would do for my children out of my love for them, I hope life never test me on that.

My belief in God is on par to my love for my children. He is not physically present, in essence he inhabits my being. His energy breathes through me and his love transcends my physical constraits.
cont......

[beso]

Seadragon. Please do not presume we would want you gone. Far from it. I have found these discussions with you and others over the past few days the most inciteful that I have experienced in 15 years online.

[jno]

Religion doesn't affect my life unless I want it to, Waldo. I can think of two ways in which it might be said to do so - state support for faith schools and the automatic presence of bishops in the House of Lords - and I think both should be abolished tomorrow if not sooner. It may well affect the lives of people in other countries, but that's their business: if I demand that the American religious right end their opposition to abortion, that would be about as impertinent - and as effective - as them demanding that we abolish the socialist NHS. So I'm specifically talking about the role of religion in Britain, which I think is negligible. No bombing of abortion clinics. No teaching of pseudoscience. No barriers to gay rights.

[beso]

My feelings for some people in my life have persisted for decades and they are still with me today. I have done much that I wished I could change but must live with. However pouring the blood of an innocent animal on the western side of of an altar us not going to fix it. Yet in the Bible this is exactly what is advocated as a way to deal with making a mistake.

Later when people got queasy about blood, Jesus died (temporarily) on the the Cross for absolutely everything wrong now or in the future for anyone who says "Lord save me". The common factor in these myths is "you don't need to be responsible for your actions". This fruit-loop philosophy that has led to a brutal existance for humanity.

I want better. We can do better. Theists are standing in the way. We cannot hope to change them but we must stop their poisionous theology from damaging the children.

[rojash]

You seem to have misread my post, jno. I didn't say that religion is irrelevant, I said that which one you choose is irrelevant: if all religions are non-evidence based, then they are all equally relevant, hence worshippers of the spaghetti monster should be accorded the same respect as worshippers of the Christian god.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Well, there is teaching of psuedoscience in British schools, jno: http://www.guardian.c...iesinscience.religion

There are bodies such as Christian Voice who, as a direct consequence of their religious beliefs attack gay rights.

There are examples of freedom of speech being attacked (Jerry Springer the Opera (Christian Voice again), and Sikh's succeeding in closing down the play Behzti) as a consequence of religious views.

There are cases of a few Muslim medical students refusing to sanitise their hands because the sprays contain alcohol, and a few who refuse to care for those who have been drinking in direct contravention of the relevant medical codes binding all medical staff. There are catholics who have refused to supply birth control on account of their views, again in contravention of the legal rights of citizens.

Then there's the issue of tax exemption - for example, council tax exemptions being abused to get the homes ofreligious leaders excluded from payment. What about radicalisation in some extreme mosques?

We're hardly free from this rubbish in the UK.

[jno]

apologies to rojash - yes, I did misread your post, though I stand by what I said following that - and to Waldo: I hadn't seen that story, and I think it's outrageous. I don't know what schools think they are doing teaching from American DVDs that turn up in the mail. It does seem to me like not so much an unwarranted intrusion of religion into schools as the actions of some science teachers who've forgotten what their job is. (I say this without knowing exactly what's in the course involved; it may be an unexceptionable critique of Darwin, as suggested.) Was there any follow-up to this story? I can't find one.

[Seadragon]

Sorry to intervene - this is seriously my last one! - Beso, you guys are so bad. You're turning me into a loving mess, I have learnt the lesson the Lord put infront of me and it is now time to move on, one should never go backwards. How you managed to stay online for 15 years I don't know but thank you so much for the huge compliment and I honestly have enjoyed talking to you as well. We could discuss other stuff at another time elsewhere on the site? Right now I feel liberated from this site and I just want to enjoy the good things I do have in my life. Hope you have a really good weekend x.

[chakka35]

I think you're very wise, Seadragon. To be able to defend religious superstition on a site where reason so often rears its shapely head needs a lot of intellectual stamina. Perhaps you just need a rest, and a recharge from your religious friends. Hope to see you back refreshed. Cheers.

[WaldoMcFroog]

jno - here's a link to Truth in Science, a Young Earth Creationist organisation who continue to promote the teaching of creationism in schools. http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/site/ They are, as you can see, very active in lobbying to get religiously-inspired creationism into schools.

I regard their views as having the potential to profoundly damage the young people of this country. We do not want to end up like the States, constantly having to battle to protect the right of children to learn well established scientific truths.

[keyplus90]

Seadragon- First of all I am really sorry to hear that you have had enough. Then if I understand rightly from what you said about me then I have no idea why you think that I am intolerant. The only explanation I can give is that as you have got fed up here after doing whatever you could sincerely then you only have two choices, either do what you are doing and disappear, or change your style and speak the only language FEW people would understand. Otherwise I am not intolerant and I know that really well. I have mo re non-Muslim friends than Muslims and I do not have two faces either. I personally believe that AB is full of atheists but that does not mean you have to run away. I haven’t and never will (Insha Allah). I have learnt more about my religion as well as lot more other beliefs since I came here. I never though that I would ever read books like The God Delusion but I did. As (due to other’s question) I found answers to my own old questions about my own religion. And I am more satisfied now than ever.

As for the atheists, Even as JNO said that they are anxious. But I would rather use a different word, dissatisfaction. And that is because the one who thinks he knows everything, in fact does not know any thing. And that brings frustration, dissatisfaction etc. Now if you use that dissatisfaction with open heart and mind then God will give you satisfying answers otherwise you will keep on going round and round in circles.

[beso]

" And that is because the one who thinks he knows everything, in fact does not know any thing."

I totally agree. But you have applied it to the wrong group.

Atheistists have accepted advances in the understanding of the natural world as they have been presented and evaluated. We even accepted that the concept of cause and effect was not universal giving over to Quantum Mecanical probabality waves at very small dimensions.

It is the theists who think they know everything because it was written down in an old book from the imagination of bigotted men with too high an impression of their own wisdom. They thought they knew everything and this is the core of theist belief.

[jno]

I agree, Waldo: I am perfectly happy with religion, but I think the state has the right to insist children be taught science. Having said that, I thought the state already did so, so I'm unclear about how this intelligent design business has made its way into science classes. Do teachers really just teach stuff that arrives in the post?

[naomi24]

Spot on, Beso.

[keyplus90]

So in other words tolerant means the one who agrees with every thing good or bad. No wonder this society is breaking up.

I respect other people’s belief. As for the religious view, Just look in the mirror and ask the same question.
I do not accept same sex relations are OK as it has bad influence on the society. I do believe women have more rights than men in certain aspects and vice versa. I do believe that non-believers can not be equal believers as nowhere law abiding are equal to the one who do not care for law. However I can never understand why atheists are always worried about this aspect as for you nothing like that exist.

Other bits are as you have written, and my above sentence does prove dissatisfaction among atheists.

[Seadragon]

It happened again - wrote a long post and it disappeared!

To keep it short now. Keyplus, you misunderstand me I was talking about my own Intolerance and now I have learnt to be more tolerant. I did just put a whole story on to explain but I am too tired to repeat it again. So I will just have to offer you an apology for the misunderstanding. However I do admire your continued persistence of presence on this site. I don't want to partake because of the negativity on this site and the expense of energy involved in stating my beliefs repeatedly. People just don't understand and I really can't be bothered to keep explaining. (Call it a weakness on my part if you wish)

Chakka, I believe in Darwin's theory as opposed to the Creationist one. I believe that the Big Band was a fluke and has nothing to do with God. So I can't see where I differ in reasoning at all. My added belief is that I believe in a Metaphysical plane of Souls e.g ghosts etc and one can reason either way for that. And you make too many assumptions as other than this site I don't discuss anything religious. And I don't have 'religious' friends. Like Keyplus I learnt alot about religion through this site and I found that I am content in my belief.

[jno]

Seadragon, the odd thing about the Big Bang theory is that it's rather close to Christian doctrine. In my youth I used to think (as most people did) that the universe had existed forever, and the biblical account was completely wrong. It turned out this 'steady state' theory was incorrect and there had indeed been a big bang - creation of the whole universe all at once. Christians believe God was behind this creation but can't say where God came from. Scientists don't believe any god was involved, but they can't really explain where it came from either.

By the way, I like your reference to the 'Big Band' theory - did Glenn Miller create the universe? I don't have any evidence that he didn't!

[beso]

Keyplus.

Yes it is a mistake to believe in tolerance of all things good and bad. And yes, society is breaking up because of it. This is why atheists are try to address the undeserved reverence afforded to the sick beliefs embodies in religion.

Your belief that men and women have different rights rests solely on what a man wrote in your holy book. Like the Biblical authors your prophet simply wrote down his own prejudice and claimed it was inspired by an imagined deity. I believe that women and men have equal rights becasue there is an absence of any reason to believe otherwise.

Your abhorrance of same sex relationships is also based on your book with no further evidence whatsoever. Science has shown that a proportion same sex attractions among animal populations is simply part of nature. Research has shown that woman with gay brothers produce more children on average. Hence the persistence of the underlying genetics that increase the liklihood of same sex attraction which would otherwise seem unlikely in Darwinian terms.

The only law intrinsically broken by nonbelievers is the "law" written in the believers books. These laws are only enforcable in countries where religion had overrun common sense and decency. I have no respect for the "laws" of bigotry written in your stupid book. Indeed they are in contravention of the morally derived laws of secular society which your kind see no problem breaking.

You are not unable to understand why atheists are concerned about religion. You simply refuse to understand as you refuse to understand the criticism leveled against your philosophy. This has been repeatedly explained. The immorality of religion that underpins the sickness in society most certainly exists. We have a right to be dissatisfied with that promotion.

[beso]

Seadragon. When posting, watch carefully for the green bar at the top of the refreshed page. Posts above 2000 characters get a red bar indicating the post was too long. In this case hit the Post An Answer tab again and your contribution will reappear.

At some sites I copy to the clipboard before posting just to be sure as it is so frustrating losing all that work. As you know the rewritten version is rarely as lucid.

[beso]

Jno. The similarity between the Biblical creation myth and the science of the Big Bang extends only to the Universe having a beginning. Everything else in Genesis is quite contrary to observed evidence. It is not unusual for a myth to accidentially parallel fact in some small way.

Scientist continue to work on observations to base a hypothesis for the origen of the Universe and several important aspects are being vigourously persued and assessed in a systematic way. I expect to see a big step toward an explanation in my lifetime and I am reasonably certain this won't involve the hand of a creator.