is this right?

[sherminator]

http://news.bbc.co.uk...ld/europe/8480161.stm


Have to say I personally agree with this ruling. Happy for people to come up with a good argument against and happy to change my views as well if someone can think why this isnt a good thing!

[Davethedog]

Yes its right and nothing can convince me otherwise.

You will get people who argue about belief and rights, however the people who's belief and rights we are talking about, were quite happy to abuse them when it suited
them. Of course we then get but this is a minority etc.

Yes its right.

[naomi24]

Yes, I think it's right. I certainly don't believe people that who cannot be easily identified should be allowed to enter public buildings.

[Rev Sermon]

Not convinced myself, which before I am pilloried is not the same as disagreeing with it. I agree that women should not be forced or pressurised into hiding themselves in this way but I'm not convinced that in some case women don't choose to dress thus. One of the things I tend to rail about most in life is censorship or bans without sufficient reason.

Regarding the statement ""radical religious practice" should be refused residence cards and citizenship.". Trouble here is how do you define "radical religious practice" take this line to it's logical conclusion and you'll find sikhs being turned away because they wear turbans, jews because they wear skull caps and so on.

I can see good arguments for not allowing it in certain circumstances but public buildings would include libraries for instance and I don't see why a woman should be refused entrance to a library becuse of the clothing she has chosen to wear.

I'm not pro the burka but I genuinely don't know where to strike the balance regarding personal freedom. To evaluate the argument objectively you really have to take muslim out of the question which isn't really possible.

[chakka35]

The aspect which is never discussed is that of simple good manners. It is downright discourteous to go into someone's home, office, classroom etc with your face covered, and the fact that it is done for religious reasons does not excuse it. Similarly bad-mannered was the young Muslim police graduate who refused to shake hands with the Chief Constable at her passing-out parade because her religion forbade her to touch a man who was not a relation. (How would she ever arrest a male villain?)

Then there is the stupifying story (told by Richard Dawkins who was there) of the prominent Jewish personage who refused to shake hands with any woman in the studio where he was due to take part in a broadcast discussion in case one of them was menstruating and that would make him unclean!

Courtesy first, weird religious rules second.

[jake-the-peg]

"Yes and nobody can convince me otherwise?"

Gosh Dave you must be very clever

To think that there is nobody on the planet who might have a viewpoint that you haven't already considered and rejected as inferior to your own.

[Androcles]

Sooner or later identification is necessary and being unable to see a face renders this impossible. We have enough problems with people wearing hoodies and scarfs; banks and building societies ban people wearing full face Crash helmets, so how do you know who is under there, with these? If we all walked around wearing face masks, how long before trust really started to break down? Whilst we are a multi-cultural society, there must be some things which we must operate to common standards, so this looks sensible. Otherwise do we all cover our faces when dealing with women in this garb? How comfortable would they then feel?

[Ankou]

not sure really on an outright ban, maybe a ruling to say that they can be requested to remove it for a particular purpose or must be removed from the building.

next they'll be telling me that i cant wear my pink lycra cycling shorts in the library.

[Androcles]

Hoy Ankou "next they'll be telling me that i cant wear my pink lycra cycling shorts in the library. "

If that what your wearing in the library, I think I'll cover my eyes rather than my face! LOL

[Rev Sermon]

Ankou,

I think you need to submit a picture of yourself in the pink lycra shorts so we can consider the matter in a rational, non-biased manner. I'm not sniggering, it was a cough.

[jake-the-peg]

Is this a real significant problem or isn't this just people objecting on principle?

Have any of you actually met a woman in full veil?

Has one come into a place you work and spoken to you? have you met someone dressed like this at a social event?

Does anyone actually have any first hand experience of this?

I'm just interested as I've known a few muslims (men and women) in my time and have not encountered it. I might have seen it in the streets a few times but I've never seen a woman in full veil on her own go into a bank for example.

[Rev Sermon]

For my part my objection is in principle to one group of people telling another how they can dress. I'll admit I'm divided on this myself, perhaps I need to speak to more women in burkas to gauge their opinions.

It's really a question of where do you draw the line, this week it's burkas next it's turbans and then maybe leather jackets or Ankou's cycling shorts.

There's also a difference between courtesy and requesting something and criminalising someone for their choice of dress.

[craft1948]

my first husband once caused a motoring accident whilst staring at a girl wearing a very short mini-skirt in 1968......now that was criminal.

[Davethedog]

Jake I am not clever and you may have as many valid points as you wish.

However what is the argument - should anyone be allowed to walk around in public because of religious reasons. If a small majority of that religion would abuse the privaliage to commit or abet crime?

You can argue religion or ethics and I would listen but none of the arguments have any bearing on the question, they may illistrate an argument but it isnt salient.

The answer is yes or no it isn't philisophical or even religious especialy if you are secular.

My answer is yes and I cannot think of an argument I would engage in that can make me think otherwise.

[Ankou]

jake – i have had first hand experience through work, which probably goes some way to explain my lack of paranoia. i can’t recall any particular social occasions.

rev, no pics – it’s a family site – just think daniel craig coming out of the sea, only with pink shorts and a lot more bulge*

* not in the preferred places admittedly, but you get the picture

[jake-the-peg]

"I cannot think of an argument I would engage in that can make me think otherwise"

Is very different from

"Nobody can say anything that would make me think otherwise"

Personally I approach things from a viewpoint that people should be able to do what they want until it becomes a problem.

I am not aware of gangs running amok robbing banks dressed in Burkas.

Until it becomes a problem, a real problem not just "It makes me feel worried" they should be free to

[Androcles]

JTP "I am not aware of gangs running amok robbing banks dressed in Burkas."

I was thinking more of cases where identity is necessary such as requiring a passport or photographic identity of some sort. Next time I go into the bank wearing a balaclava with holes cut in and could see what happens. Perhaps they would accept it is part of my religious beliefs?

[jake-the-peg]

Androcles - I think you'll find generally muslim women willbe happy to take off a veil in tre presence of a female officer if necessary and I think this is accomodated for.

You'll rarely see devout muslims in banks anyway because of their religiou beliefs - let alone a devout unaccompanied woman.

As for balaclavas - you don't suspect we should ban tights seeing as how "villians" like to use them as masks?

Like I say - we should reexamine it if it becomes a problem - try again after we have a spate of Burka clad safe crackers

[chakka35]

Is there really no interest at all in my idea that good manners are important?

[Ankou]

to them, remaining covered and (virtually) mute in the presence of a man who is not related is what they would call 'good manners' or respect even.

yes, you may disagree with that, but then they would probably find something that you personally feel is good manners quite insulting.

[naomi24]

//to them, remaining covered and (virtually) mute in the presence of a man who is not related is what they would call 'good manners' or respect even. //

...... or in many instances, obligatory.